00;00;00;08 - 00;00;09;29 J.R. Jamison J.R.: The United States is the most divided it has been since the Civil War. Yet there are everyday people who are still willing to work together to find a path forward. I'm J.R. Jamison. 00;00;10;00 - 00;00;33;20 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: And I'm Kelsey Timmerman. At the height of the 2016 election, J.R., a gay liberal highbrow, and his dad, a working class Trump supporter, traveled to Missouri to uncover truths about their family's past. Today on the Facing Project, we discuss identity, family and J.R.’s forthcoming memoir, “Hillbilly Queer.” [Theme music] 00;00;33;22 - 00;00;44;13 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: J.R., I found some audio of a talk to you gave where you shared advice you gave to a high school student who was struggling with his identity. I want to share it and then point something out. Okay. 00;00;44;19 - 00;01;05;28 J.R. Jamison J.R.: Last fall, I spoke at a high school in Connecticut. I spoke to hundreds of students that day. When the auditorium cleared out, one student, an international student, stayed off in the corner. He was searching. I could tell that he had something he wanted to say. So I put my hand on his shoulder, and I said, “It's okay.” He started to cry. 00;01;06;00 - 00;01;26;12 J.R. Jamison He bit his lip, and he said, “I'm gay. But I'm afraid that I will be disowned if I tell people that.” And I said, “You have to be yourself. You have to love yourself.” And he said, “You don't understand. Where I'm from, if I tell somebody I'm gay, I'll be put to death or sent to prison for life.” 00;01;26;15 - 00;01;52;01 J.R. Jamison I didn't know what to say in that moment. There was this awkward silence that hung between us, and while I was searching for what to say, he beat me to it, and he just said, “Thank you. Thank you for sharing your story today, because I needed to hear that.” I told him that he needed to be brave, but that he should only share his story when it was safe and he was comfortable to do so. 00;01;52;03 - 00;02;14;10 J.R. Jamison He said that he would, but probably not until after college, and he had a job and his own money. But he knew that when he told his parents, he maybe had a safe space here in the United States, but his parents would never speak to him again. Sometimes we have to walk away from other people's expectations of what they want us to be. 00;02;14;10 - 00;02;19;15 J.R. Jamison And that's the caveat for the strange thing that's called life. 00;02;19;17 - 00;02;28;10 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: What you shared really shows the power sharing your story can have on someone else. You spoke with such purpose and confidence. 00;02;28;12 - 00;02;42;24 J.R. Jamison J.R.: Yeah, well, it hasn't always been that way. In fact, I could give any stranger advice and guidance. But when it came to my own family, I often shied away from going too deep. But as you know, that all changed in the past few years. 00;02;42;25 - 00;02;59;27 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: Yeah, I mean, it's the kind of the subject of your new book, “Hillbilly Queer,” published by the Facing Project Press, and you decided to go with your dad to Missouri, to his class reunion. Like, what was that decision process like? And how did that trip come to be? 00;02;59;29 - 00;03;27;04 J.R. Jamison J.R.: Well, my dad and I have always been complete opposites ever since I was a kid, and growing up, my friends would always point out when they would come to visit me, you know, come over to play or whatever, “Wow, your dad is so different from you.” And that was true. And even into adulthood, when any of my adult age friends would meet my family, 00;03;27;06 - 00;04;01;29 J.R. Jamison people would always say, “How is that your dad? The two of you just seem like complete opposites, yet you, you also seem to get along.” So there was this uniqueness about our relationship that always existed. And then around 2016, where we were as a country during the Trump and Clinton presidential campaign, this growing divide that had existed for some time was coming even closer to the surface and cracking open, 00;04;02;00 - 00;04;26;15 J.R. Jamison right? And people and things were crawling out of that, that just really showed us as a nation how divided we were. And my dad asked me to go on a road trip with him at that same time to his 55 year high school reunion. And part of me didn't want to, because I knew that we fell on opposite ends of the political spectrum. 00;04;26;16 - 00;04;36;24 J.R. Jamison And, you know, I saw enough of that on TV and just experiencing it in other parts of my life that I thought, oh boy, I don't know that I want to go. 00;04;36;24 - 00;04;47;11 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: So, so what did you listen to in the car? Was it like talk radio or was it songs, country songs? Rock songs? What were you listening to? Or was it silence? 00;04;47;13 - 00;05;14;25 J.R. Jamison J.R.: My dad loves country music. And so we started off listening to country music as we left my hometown of Cowen, Indiana. And at some point, once we reached, you know, Indianapolis, heading west toward Missouri, the radio stations started to fade away, and it was just staticky, and my dad just turned it off. And so then it was us trapped in the cabin of his car, just having conversation. 00;05;14;25 - 00;05;37;01 J.R. Jamison And at times there, there were long pauses of silence. And then he would share some stories about his childhood. And these were stories that I had often heard growing up. And there were stories I just kind of learned to drown out. But I really had no option but to listen to him in that moment. And so that's what I chose to do. 00;05;37;01 - 00;06;01;02 J.R. Jamison And going back to Missouri with my dad, to where he was from, the place that made him who who he is is something that I was reluctant to do. But given where we were in society and still are in many ways, and knowing how different my dad and I are, it felt like the most critical thing that I could have done in that moment. 00;06;01;04 - 00;06;10;10 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: I think the introduction of your book does a nice job of setting up you and your dad and your differences. I was wondering if you could read the opening paragraph for us? 00;06;10;11 - 00;06;35;28 J.R. Jamison J.R.: Sure. If “good old boy,” “straight shooting,” “deer hunter” or “a man's man” are words that describe my dad, then well, I'm everything opposite of that. I more of a “gay as the day as long,” “don't shoot anything” kind of “man's man.” I spend my days in the world of trigger warnings and safe spaces, while my blue collar dad spends his yelling “Snowflakes!” at the TV and questioning how America has become so sensitive. 00;06;36;01 - 00;06;57;16 J.R. Jamison There's always been this difference between us. And as I've gotten older, I've come to realize that what we represent is the rising divide in our nation. I mean, after all, we were two people who should not like each other. People like me looked at people like dad and thought, hillbilly, and people like dad looked at people like me and thought, queer. 00;06;57;18 - 00;07;07;29 J.R. Jamison But maybe this once, we could be brave enough to go beyond conversations and step wildly into each other's worlds. What would we find on the other side? 00;07;08;02 - 00;07;15;26 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: J.R., you recently snuck away from Easter dinner to interview your dad about how things are now. It's like, what was that like? 00;07;15;28 - 00;07;44;02 J.R. Jamison J.R.: Yeah, we talk all the time, but it had been a while since we sat down together to do a formal interview in my childhood home. I mean, we were in my old bedroom, which is like a time capsule from my teenage years, and I could hear the Easter gathering going on downstairs, and I had questions I wanted to ask my dad that I was nervous about; questions about past homophobic remarks that he had made, his relationship with his own dad and such. 00;07;44;02 - 00;07;51;04 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: So, like, I'm trying to imagine your childhood bedroom, still pristine. Like, are there Madonna posters on the wall? 00;07;51;09 - 00;08;08;22 J.R. Jamison J.R.: No. Those are long gone, but Marilyn Monroe's cardboard cutout is still there. She's been in the same spot since 1995. In fact, Christmas of ‘95 when I got the cardboard cutout. So she stood in the corner and watched guard over our conversation. 00;08;08;22 - 00;08;17;10 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: And so what we are about to hear, well, it's kind of like we're eavesdropping on a father and son conversation between J.R. and his dad. 00;08;17;11 - 00;08;44;03 J.R. Jamison J.R.: I'm here with my dad, Dave, and my childhood home of Cowan, Indiana, and the last time we sat down together for a formal interview was in this house four and a half years ago, when Gary Younge from The Guardian came here all the way from London, England, to talk to us about why we're so different, yet we're able to still get along and have a relationship. 00;08;44;03 - 00;09;07;02 J.R. Jamison And, you know, that was really the basis of why he wanted to come here and talk to us. He looked at us as opposite ends of the political and cultural spectrum. We were at the height of the Clinton/Trump presidential campaigns. Yet you and I were able to still accept each other and get along, even though we had different candidates we supported [laughs] in that time. 00;09;07;05 - 00;09;26;22 J.R. Jamison And now here we are in 2021, post-Trump presidency, and we're still sitting down together for dinner at a time when so many people have cut off their relatives who are either pro-Trump or pro-Biden. What do you think, from your perspective, makes our relationship unique? 00;09;26;25 - 00;09;41;14 Dave Jamison Dave: It's like the old song, [singing] “Love, sweet love.” That's all we need is [singing] “Love, sweet love.” Gotta have love in your heart. 00;09;41;17 - 00;09;47;21 Dave Jamison And let people be. Accept people, and let them be free. You got to be free. 00;09;47;24 - 00;09;57;25 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: I loved your dad singing. And I'm hoping that we get to hear a little singing from you at some point in this interview. Is that going to be the case? 00;09;57;27 - 00;10;14;23 J.R. Jamison J.R.: No. Trust me. No one wants to hear that. You know, we all have certain talents, and singing is definitely not one of my- I mean, I love to sing, but as Corey likes to tell me, my husband Corey, somebody lied to me when I was a child because [laughter] I can't sing, but I do like to. 00;10;14;24 - 00;10;18;29 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: So you were into theater, but just not the singing part of theater, really wasn't cut out for. 00;10;19;00 - 00;10;43;26 J.R. Jamison J.R.: Yeah, yeah. You know, and my dad there sings about all you need is, is love and to be free in yourself and. Yeah, that, that's okay. That didn't always feel that way growing up, that being fully who I was as a gay man was okay. Love felt conditional, and I thought the moment I shared my true self would be the end of our relationship. 00;10;43;28 - 00;10;58;03 J.R. Jamison What I really wanted in life, I don't think is much different from what others want, and that is to be accepted and liked. Unfortunately, that longing for acceptance can lead to edit your life in a way that you are never truly your own self. 00;10;58;05 - 00;11;15;24 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: One of the most remarkable and tension filled parts of the book was when your dad discovered a love note from your first boyfriend, Steve. So the open letter was on your bed and you knew your dad had read it. You left the house and pondered living in a playground castle. 00;11;15;26 - 00;11;17;21 J.R. Jamison J.R.: Yeah. [laughter] I did. 00;11;17;26 - 00;11;19;26 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: And you didn't want to go back because, 00;11;20;03 - 00;11;20;18 J.R. Jamison J.R.: I didn’t, no. 00;11;20;21 - 00;11;28;20 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: ...you weren't sure, like, what your dad would say. And would he accept you? Could you please read what happened when you got home? 00;11;28;22 - 00;11;51;04 J.R. Jamison J.R.: Yes. Yeah, I'd love to. I want to give a little bit of context too. So, yeah, like you mentioned, I had left, and I was wandering around in the country, and I really didn't want to go home. And when I did, I found my dad right where I had left him in the living room setting, sitting in his La-Z-Boy. 00;11;51;07 - 00;12;14;20 J.R. Jamison And I went, I went down there, and I sat down on the couch, and I was just kind of hoping maybe, maybe we could just move past this, and nothing would ever be said. But then my dad moved from the La-Z-Boy over to me, and this next scene from my book is what happened next. 00;12;14;22 - 00;12;42;05 J.R. Jamison He smiled and squeezed my knee. “Is this a phase?” “No,” I said. “Well, I guess I figured as much.” The years of clues strung together in the back of his mind. The dolls, the theater, all of my friends who were girls but not girlfriends. And now the letter. He brought up the Bible and hell, but told me he didn't believe I'd go there as long as I did good in this world. 00;12;42;07 - 00;13;01;19 J.R. Jamison He pulled my hand from under my knee and held it. He leaned into me and touched my forehead with his and told me he loved me. I nodded my head in agreement and the spotlight was too bright. It seared right through my eyes and released the tears. I let go of dad's hand and didn't tell him I loved him. 00;13;01;22 - 00;13;27;21 J.R. Jamison Instead, I told him I needed to go lie down. He had given permission to be me. I guess I expected defiance so much that I craved it. I was brave enough to go through so many trends, to be so many things, to leave little clues. But when it came down to it, I wasn't brave enough to allow dad - the bravest, most macho man I knew - to accept me. 00;13;27;23 - 00;13;47;08 J.R. Jamison Someday I imagined, it all changed as the reality set in more and more of who I was. Like the first time I'd bring a guy home for the holidays, maybe sitting hand in hand with him on the same couch, or when we'd go to sleep in the same bed at night. All the things that would happen hereafter might be too much for dad. 00;13;47;11 - 00;14;01;19 J.R. Jamison Maybe he'd retract his love. I decided that night that separating myself from his grip, from his love, would be the easiest in the end, because nothing ever turns out to be a happy story. 00;14;01;22 - 00;14;09;25 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: It seems like your dad offered nothing but love and support. So why did you think your dad might reject you? 00;14;09;28 - 00;14;30;07 J.R. Jamison J.R.: When I was growing up, it wasn't uncommon to hear my dad make homophobic remarks, and at the time, I had just come out of high school and where I'd been terribly bullied for being gay. As a gay person who became clear to me that acceptance was conditional, and when I let who I really was out a little too much, that's when the bullying would start. 00;14;30;07 - 00;14;53;25 J.R. Jamison So, you know, it was, it was kind of hard to let my dad see who I was and to accept me for who I fully was. I mean, I just I kept thinking about those moments in childhood outside of my home, the bullying, but then also remarks I would hear my dad say, and I felt like maybe that love was conditional. 00;14;53;25 - 00;15;12;15 J.R. Jamison And even though he showed me love in that moment, I just kept thinking, but when will it be too much? When will I be too much for him? And where's that line? Where's that line that we draw? And I wasn't sure. But I knew in that moment that someday it may come. 00;15;12;22 - 00;15;27;02 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: Yeah. I mean, your dad's love for you seems to be unconditional, which is what we all hope for. But still, I know you were nervous when you were interviewing him over Easter about the next question. 00;15;27;05 - 00;15;45;10 J.R. Jamison J.R.: I write in my book about being a kid and hearing somewhat homophobic comments from you when I was growing up. [Laughter] I have a few that I won't share here, but there are a few of them in the in the book that I write, and I was actually terrified to come out of the closet just because you were a tough guy. 00;15;45;11 - 00;16;15;11 J.R. Jamison I mean, you always, you know, you had a tough guy persona, working class, blue collar. You were a man's man. And so when that time came, when I actually did come out of the closet, you didn't miss a beat and accepted me with open arms. And I've never really heard a homophobic comment from you since, so can you talk a little bit about that kind of radical acceptance and how that shift for you came to be? 00;16;15;13 - 00;16;39;27 Dave Jamison Dave: Well, I grew up in the South, and there was a lot of prejudice down there. But after I got saved, after I gave my heart to the Lord, things changed. And even though I got older and was around a lot of people that used a lot of bad words about people and everything, 00;16;40;00 - 00;17;00;26 Dave Jamison my heart wasn't there. I didn't go there. My heart was still- After I was ba-, got saved and was baptized, things changed. And I looked, looked at things differently than I did. Yeah, than I used to, right. 00;17;00;29 - 00;17;03;25 J.R. Jamison J.R.: So does that go back to that love? 00;17;03;27 - 00;17;04;12 Dave Jamison Dave: Yes. 00;17;04;16 - 00;17;13;03 J.R. Jamison J.R.: So your Christian identity is based in your acceptance of all people. 00;17;13;10 - 00;17;17;09 Dave Jamison Dave: Right, well, you know yourself, we're a mixed race. 00;17;17;11 - 00;17;18;24 J.R. Jamison J.R.: Yeah. 00;17;18;24 - 00;17;21;09 Dave Jamison Dave: Black, Cherokee Indian, 00;17;21;11 - 00;17;25;23 J.R. Jamison J.R.: Yeah. 00;17;25;25 - 00;17;36;02 Dave Jamison Dave: ...Irish, German. And I'm proud of that heritage. Proud of the black heritage. 00;17;36;05 - 00;18;02;13 Dave Jamison We had people came over from Africa. Our great-great-grandmother came over from Africa, and I'm pretty sure she was a slave and was sold in New York City. Later married a Cherokee chief, which is my great-great-grandpa. And then they wound up moving west, settled there in south central Missouri, where I grew up. But I've run into a lot of prejudiced people. 00;18;02;13 - 00;18;17;13 Dave Jamison But I just kind of let it go in one ear and out the other. I can't take that kind of thing to my heart because my heart isn't filled with, with hatred or bitterness about anything. 00;18;17;15 - 00;18;22;02 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: Have you ever imagined that your dad had been discriminated against, too? 00;18;22;04 - 00;18;50;15 J.R. Jamison J.R.: I hadn't until we went back to Missouri. And he shared stories about his great grandmother, Eliza Morningstar, and the hurtful things that were said about the color of her skin that then bled over to some of his friends teasing him. You know, these childhood hurts stay for a long time, well into adulthood, and it took us diving into our past and bringing it to the surface and into the present day to realize that everyone is more nuanced than what we see on the surface. 00;18;50;20 - 00;18;53;25 J.R. Jamison So, for instance, when I first met you, I thought you were a bro. 00;18;53;26 - 00;18;56;22 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: What? Never judge a man by his flip flops. 00;18;56;23 - 00;19;18;20 J.R. Jamison J.R.: Well, I did, and because of that, I made assumptions about who you were, what you thought was cool and not cool. And I was careful around you during those first few months that I was getting to know you. Because I wasn't sure what you would think about me. You know, as somebody I was trying to develop a friendship with and a professional relationship, 00;19;18;22 - 00;19;40;27 J.R. Jamison I just, I felt like I had to be careful, and similar to my dad and how I thought someday my gayness would become too much, but life is too nuanced for that to be true. So, for example, my dad is a Christian, and he found acceptance for me because of his faith. But other people are Christian and use their faith against people like me. 00;19;40;29 - 00;20;01;13 J.R. Jamison Our society is too dualistic, especially now, and we aren't able to see the nuance. It's either you're this or you're that, or you're on this side of an issue, so you must be on every side of that issue. But the reality is, is that no one is one dimensional. Unfortunately, because of dualism, whatever category you're lumped into can bring about injustices or privileges. 00;20;01;14 - 00;20;21;14 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: I wonder how much more accepting of one another we’d be as a society if we knew the diversity and struggles in our own family histories? I mean, I can't even name all of my great-grandparents. You know, you write about the nuance on page 91. Could you please read this paragraph, starting with, “Our family story?” 00;20;21;16 - 00;20;46;25 J.R. Jamison J.R.: Sure. I'd be happy to. Our family story is one example of the cultural fiction America has been so obsessed with over time. If a person presented one way, they were this. If a person presented another, they were that, even if they weren't this or that. There was no room for the in-between, no space for difference. Only boxes that one must tick, and whatever box was ticked opened 00;20;46;26 - 00;21;20;09 J.R. Jamison opportunity or misfortune. Race is fiction, but racism is not. The truth was no matter how dark the skin was of some of our family members, we as a family had some privileges because of how we presented ourselves to the world and how the world in return accepted us to be. But if there was one thing dad couldn't hide, it was his hillbilly ways: a byproduct of his rural upbringing that now existed as part of his aura. He could hide his blackness and native heritage and pass as a white guy 00;21;20;10 - 00;21;45;08 J.R. Jamison same as me. But his southern drawl, colloquialisms and do-it-yourself-jimmy-rigging mentality hadn’t allowed him to pass as anything other than a hillbilly in Indiana. And the one thing I couldn't hide was my gayness. I could straighten my walk, deepen my voice, and pump iron as much as the next guy. But I was most comfortable accepting the sissy way that I walked along with my inflections and my overall queerness. 00;21;45;10 - 00;21;55;23 J.R. Jamison And that stuck out in Indiana as well. For better or for worse. Hillbilly, queer. Dad, son. 00;21;55;26 - 00;22;03;01 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: Your book is a story about you and your dad. I wonder what was your dad's relationship like with his father? 00;22;03;03 - 00;22;24;27 J.R. Jamison J.R.: Growing up, I never heard my dad say much about his father other than stories that had to do with drunken escapades. But traveling together back to Missouri, my dad shared deeper stories about his father that made me realize that my grandpa was more than the town drunk. He was a businessman. He was a father who sometimes took my dad fishing and hunting. 00;22;24;29 - 00;22;28;11 J.R. Jamison He really tried to be there, but addiction got the best of him. 00;22;28;18 - 00;23;00;04 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: This really comes to light in the chapter you write about Old Lady Baker, who used to work for your grandfather. So I loved the Old Lady Baker, like, she was 97 when you sat on her porch, and she served as this reminder of the passage of time. When you think about all the things that she had seen in her almost century of life, and also this reminder of what was really important, which was not the day to day breaking news or politics, but the relationships built over time. 00;23;00;06 - 00;23;12;20 Kelsey Timmerman I also really appreciated that the love that she still carried after all these years, and all his struggles for your grandfather. Could you please read about sipping tea on Old Lady Baker's porch? 00;23;12;24 - 00;23;24;01 J.R. Jamison J.R.: Yeah, I would love to revisit that time together on her porch. It's such a lovely memory of the entire trip and experience. 00;23;24;03 - 00;23;38;01 J.R. Jamison The porch glider whistled in the background. Dad and Old Lady Baker made eye contact, and she tilted her head downward and smiled and then turned her attention to me. She asked if I wanted to hear some stories about Grandpa Harrison. 00;23;38;01 - 00;24;11;17 J.R. Jamison I nodded. She clapped her hands together with a laugh and then rested them on her knees. She leaned forward. “Your grandpa was an excellent drummer. I played the drums right alongside him. He wasn't better than me, but he sure did beat all the other boys.” She relished in the opportunity to share a few memories with us about him, about how he played pranks on other boys in the band, about the time when he poured water down the saxophones where it rested in the bells and stopped the sound, and he replaced the reeds with chewing gum. 00;24;11;19 - 00;24;32;13 J.R. Jamison As these discoveries were found, he pounded away on his snare and cracked a smile. His drumsticks floated up and down from the pocket of his thumbs and forefingers. Little jokes here and there to keep the rhythm of life moving forward. With each word from Old Lady Baker, I realized how ornery he was, like dad and his fake marriage, 00;24;32;13 - 00;25;01;04 J.R. Jamison or blowing up the quad hoping for a laugh. I guess the apple really doesn't fall far from the tree. Old Lady Baker's tone became somber. She looked to the ground, “But the spring of ‘42 got the best of him. He never recovered from being rejected by the army.” Grandpa Harrison tried to enlist not long after Pearl Harbor, like many of the other men around Steelville had done, but partial blindness in his right eye made the army give him a pass. During the war, 00;25;01;05 - 00;25;21;05 J.R. Jamison sales at the grocery store were down, and they never did bounce back. While his high school friends died across the ocean in places he'd only read about in books, he tried to figure out how to make ends meet for his new family. When the pieces hadn't come together, what he found was solace in the liquid courage that had been given to him as a kid at the brewery. 00;25;21;07 - 00;25;42;02 J.R. Jamison Old Lady Baker reached across the porch glider and grabbed Dad’s hand. “Harrison sure did love his boys.” She rubbed her thumb across the top and smiled at dad. “He wanted the best for you, Davey, and he had hoped to get sober. You know that. I've told you before. He never could tell you. So I'm here to always remind you.” 00;25;42;04 - 00;26;03;15 J.R. Jamison The whistle from the porch glider stopped. Dad wiped a tear from his eye and exhaled loudly, took a sip of his tea, and our eyes caught. He smiled, but I could see the pain behind it. The whistle from the porch glider began again. “I loved him, too,” Dad said. A dad and a son who never learned how to connect. 00;26;03;17 - 00;26;25;16 J.R. Jamison They lived in the periphery of one another's lives, but never met in the middle. I always thought of Grandpa Harrison as a one dimensional character. The town drunk, an embarrassment. But the truth is that we are all deeper stories than what is presented on the surface. We are more than the pain we've caused, or the narratives we've tried to create for those who want to look inside. 00;26;25;18 - 00;26;49;14 J.R. Jamison I've known this for some time. It's why I founded The Facing Project and have spent my career trying to connect people across difference. I need and want people to recognize the human condition, but sometimes it's hard to see, to feel, to understand the stories of those closest to us. Perhaps it's a fear of being let down, and a fear of accepting truths that we don't want to embrace. 00;26;49;16 - 00;27;13;01 J.R. Jamison Grandpa Harrison may have been a drunk, but he was also a hurt man who didn't know how to cope with his mistakes and his shortcomings. The hole he had created around himself kept getting deeper and deeper. Dad may have moved to Indiana to run from his own failures and that of his dad's, and I may have run from the life that he tried to create for me in Cowan, but our stories, our past, 00;27;13;03 - 00;27;15;20 J.R. Jamison that is home. 00;27;15;22 - 00;27;23;27 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: That was great. I want to sit with Old Lady Baker, have some of her tea and listen to her life lessons. 00;27;23;29 - 00;27;52;26 J.R. Jamison J.R.: Yeah. You know, my dad never got to say goodbye to his dad, so that was a powerful moment to me to, to experience that. And I asked my dad about that when I sat down with him at Easter about the fact that he never got to say goodbye to his own father, and honestly, the fact that he never got to say goodbye reminded me why it was so important to connect with him in this way. 00;27;53;01 - 00;28;05;20 J.R. Jamison J.R.: I remember you sharing the story with me when I was younger, and I mean, you've recounted it, you know, time and again about, you know, the last day, the last time you remember seeing him, and... 00;28;05;21 - 00;28;06;06 Dave Jamison Dave: Yeah. 00;28;06;07 - 00;28;11;07 J.R. Jamison J.R.: And he had gone to jail for, you know, a minor infraction, I think, right? 00;28;11;07 - 00;28;25;21 Dave Jamison Dave: Right. They were going to let him out that next morning. On Sunday morning. And I was going to go see him, but he'd already passed away. Yeah, yeah. It's all part of life. You know. 00;28;25;22 - 00;28;27;20 J.R. Jamison J.R.: But are there- Is there anything that- 00;28;27;20 - 00;28;57;15 Dave Jamison Dave: I wish he could have seen my kids and grandkids. He never got to. The only grandkid that he knew was James. And he was just a real young boy. And then my baby brother, you know, he was with dad. It was sad. He was- Pat was only five years old. I think when dad passed away. And I'm 21 years older than him, my baby brother. [Laughter] 00;28;57;16 - 00;29;00;13 J.R. Jamison J.R.: Yeah. He was a happy accident. 00;29;00;16 - 00;29;04;25 Dave Jamison Dave: Mom was 42 when she had him. Oh, yeah. 00;29;05;01 - 00;29;06;04 J.R. Jamison J.R.: Yeah. 00;29;06;06 - 00;29;16;28 Dave Jamison Dave: Yeah, I've got tons of stories, hunting stories and fishing stories, and I could go on and on, but we're kind of limited on time. [Laughter] 00;29;17;02 - 00;29;19;08 J.R. Jamison J.R.: Yeah, yeah. 00;29;19;10 - 00;29;32;29 Dave Jamison Dave: But I love all of them. I love Biden, I love Trump. You gotta love everybody. You can't have a bitter heart, you know? You just- And I'm type of person I just kind of roll with the flow. 00;29;33;04 - 00;29;45;10 J.R. Jamison J.R.: Yeah. And that's what I've always liked about you. I think you've taught me that the world is more nuanced. It's not just, you know, you're this... 00;29;45;11 - 00;29;46;23 Dave Jamison Dave: Dog eat dog... 00;29;46;26 - 00;29;48;07 J.R. Jamison J.R.: Yeah, yeah. 00;29;48;09 - 00;29;48;26 Dave Jamison Dave: ...type stuff. 00;29;48;29 - 00;30;10;26 J.R. Jamison J.R.: Or you're just this or you’re that. You know, like we so often put people into, not us, but just, you know, society in general so often puts people into boxes of, well, if you voted this way or you think think this one thing, then you must think exactly like everybody else who also likes this one other thing. And that's just not true. [Laughter] 00;30;10;27 - 00;30;29;00 J.R. Jamison Right? We're more nuanced than that as people. And I think, you know, you've continued to show me that growing up, people always said to me, like, you and your dad are so different, you know, and you were you were a basketball star. And I was into theater, you know, that was just that was my thing. But, 00;30;29;02 - 00;30;30;06 Dave Jamison Dave: But we love each other. 00;30;30;06 - 00;30;31;00 J.R. Jamison J.R.: We love each other. 00;30;31;01 - 00;30;31;25 Dave Jamison Dave: It's what matters. 00;30;31;26 - 00;30;37;25 J.R. Jamison J.R.: And so. So I love you, dad. And even though we may not always agree on everything, you're my one and only dad. 00;30;38;02 - 00;30;40;13 Dave Jamison Dave: We agree to disagree and love each other, dunnit. [Laughter] 00;30;40;13 - 00;30;44;09 J.R. Jamison J.R.: Yes. Yeah, well, thank you for sitting down with me. 00;30;44;11 - 00;30;46;03 Dave Jamison Dave: You're more than welcome. I love you, son. 00;30;46;04 - 00;30;47;25 J.R. Jamison J.R.: I love you too, Dad. 00;30;47;27 - 00;30;52;02 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: J.R. What do you hope people take away from your book? 00;30;52;04 - 00;31;15;10 J.R. Jamison J.R.: Yeah. My biggest hope is that people will find that one person in their life who maybe they're not close to anymore - maybe because of politics or because of religion or because of whatever it may be - and I hope that they call them. Life is way too short to wish that you did that one thing, only to find that someday, in the end, that you didn't. 00;31;15;12 - 00;31;27;06 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: Well, thanks for taking the time to share your story, to write your story. I know it wasn't easy and it took a lot of time and effort and, and also just to travel with your dad and to listen to him. 00;31;27;07 - 00;31;27;22 J.R. Jamison J.R.: Yeah. 00;31;27;23 - 00;31;49;05 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: So Hillbilly Queer is out on May 11th, 2021, from The Facing Project Press, and will be available everywhere books are sold. [Theme music] 00;31;49;08 - 00;31;59;20 J.R. Jamison J.R.: We want to think Muncie Pride and Replogle Studios for the audio of my keynote talk that was used at the beginning of this episode. And of course, I want to thank my dad, Dave Jamison. 00;31;59;20 - 00;32;25;28 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: To listen to pass episodes of this program, visit IndianaPublicRadio.org/TheFacingProject. From there, you can subscribe to the podcast where you'll get episodes of the Facing Project delivered to your device each month. Listeners can contribute stories or volunteer to share the stories of others with the Facing Project that may appear on the show. More information at FacingProject.com/InspireAction, and to continue the conversation about this episode, find us on Facebook at The Facing Project. 00;32;25;28 - 00;32;48;13 J.R. Jamison J.R.: The Facing Project is recorded at Indiana Public Radio at Ball State University in beautiful Muncie, Indiana, and is produced by the amazing producer extraordinaire Sean Ashcraft. The show is distributed nationally through PRX. We're your host, Kelsey Timmerman and J.R. Jamison. And until next time, we wish you the courage to share your own story and the empathy to listen to others. [Theme music concludes]