00;00;04;05 - 00;00;22;08 Jim Fielding [Theme music] Fielding: And I think the best leaders, and it kind of goes back to the question you asked me earlier, the bosses who said to me, “What can I do to bring the best of you out? Like, I do have control as the leader to try and make it better.” 00;00;22;11 - 00;00;49;27 J.R. Jamison Jamison: I'm J.R. Jamison. Today on the Facing Project, I sit down with Jim Fielding, a C-suite executive who spent 30 years leading some of the world's most beloved media and retail brands, including The Gap, Disney, Claire's, Dreamworks, and 20th Century Fox. Jim's latest book, “All Pride, No Ego: A Queer Executive’s Journey to Living and Leading Authentically,” was released last year, and in our conversation, we explored lessons on empathy and cracking the rainbow ceiling. 00;00;49;28 - 00;01;05;01 J.R. Jamison Stay with us. [Theme music] 00;01;05;03 - 00;01;51;08 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Today's guest is Jim Fielding, a proud Ohioan who was raised in a working class family and through grit, self-awareness and Midwestern values worked his way to the top of some of the world's most beloved media and retail brands, including The Gap, Disney, Claire's, Dreamworks, and 20th Century Fox. Jim's latest book, “All Pride, No Ego: A Queer Executive’s Journey to Living and Leading Authentically,” explores a call to action for authentic servant leadership and encourages people to own their truth while also sharing lessons learned from his key decisions and inflection points, and highlighting how his leadership style, learning successes and failures informed his rise through the rungs of the corporate ladder. 00;01;51;10 - 00;01;58;02 J.R. Jamison Jim Fielding, author of “All Pride, No Ego,” and educator and business executive, thank you so much for joining me on The Facing Project. 00;01;58;03 - 00;02;01;15 Jim Fielding Fielding: Thank you so much for having me. I've been really excited to do this. 00;02;01;17 - 00;02;14;10 J.R. Jamison Jamison: I really enjoyed your book. And in the opening preface of “All Pride, No Ego,” you indicated that you never intended to write an autobiography or a sweeping review of your life. Tell me more. 00;02;14;13 - 00;02;45;25 Jim Fielding Fielding: Yeah, I mean, I love that question, J.R., because it's interesting that it kind of happened in the middle of the writing that I thought I was really writing a leadership book. And I do think it's a leadership book. I think it's organized around- I think it's a leadership and life lesson book organized around these ten learnings. But in talking to my editor and then in talking to some of my early readers, I had like 25 people who were kind of early readers reading it at different stages to give me feedback. 00;02;45;25 - 00;03;10;21 Jim Fielding And I heard from like ten of them that, like, “Jim, you keep saying,” like - I had literally written it's not an autobiography - and then like, “Jim, it reads like an autobiography, like it's okay, like, own it.” And I, I went back and read it- because a lot of times you're writing a book, you're writing a book in sections, and you don't really look at it holistically until you get farther along. 00;03;10;21 - 00;03;33;27 Jim Fielding And I said, oh my gosh, I am really sharing a lot of my personal story. And and what I realized was, in order to illustrate the leadership lessons, I needed to share personal and professional stories. So it became, you know, it's not an autobiography, as you know, because you read the book. It's not told in chronological order. It's not, you know, this is what happened in 1965. 00;03;33;28 - 00;03;58;08 Jim Fielding This is what happened in 2020. And to that point in the in the prologue, I had to go in and put in a resume almost because people were getting confused. The early readers were getting confused about, when did you work at Dreamworks and when did you work at Fox? But I realized as I was writing the book that if I was going to write a book about authentic leadership, I had to own my story and I had to own my authenticity. 00;03;58;08 - 00;04;20;00 Jim Fielding And that meant owning the good and the bad. And, you know, the biggest early reader was- one of the biggest early readers was my sister. And I had lots of conversations with my sister Jill about how far I was going, because by sharing a lot of my story, I was sharing her story, and I said, “Are you comfortable with this?” 00;04;20;02 - 00;04;41;10 Jim Fielding I knew my mom was. I had talked to her as well, but I really wanted to talk to my sister because obviously she lived it with me. So that's- so it really, I would call it an autobiographical leadership book now, I guess, but it really- I didn't intend to sit down and write an autobiography [is what ended up happening]. 00;04;41;12 - 00;05;10;17 J.R. Jamison Jamison: I enjoyed the autobiographical experience, because, you know, in the surface, when one may think about an executive that had risen to the level you have in your career, I don't always think about Toledo, Ohio, or the Midwest, or coming from really working class roots. And I think that's an important story to tell. And I also think your identity as a queer man is important to add in there as well. 00;05;10;18 - 00;05;33;23 J.R. Jamison And those two things together, connected to that leadership journey, I just found so valuable. And about growing up in Toledo, you write, “I felt many expectations, but I also felt like I was given wings and a belief that I would leave and do something interesting. They,” referring to your family, “just did not realize they had birthed a complicated unicorn.” 00;05;33;23 - 00;05;47;22 J.R. Jamison I love that. “One who did not naturally fit in traditional societal norms and stereotypes, no matter how hard I tried.” What was it about your early life experiences that shaped you into the leader you've become? 00;05;47;24 - 00;06;09;28 Jim Fielding Fielding: Yeah, I love this line of questioning too, J.R.. I mean, I think my Midwestern roots and values and ethics and the way I was raised are shaped me as obviously as a human being, but also as a leader. I think I lead in a very kind of direct Midwestern way. I make eye contact, I, I, I smile at people. 00;06;09;29 - 00;06;28;29 Jim Fielding I mean, I just, I think even all those years in Hollywood, I was a little bit of a fish out of water because I hadn’t grown up in that system. I had grown up, you know, in the Midwest. I think what shaped me was, you know, here I was born into a family, third, third or fourth generation Toledoan, 00;06;28;29 - 00;06;46;02 Jim Fielding right? Fire department legacy. I write about, you know, my father, grandfather and great grandfather all in the fire department. It would have been very easy for my parents to just kind of mold me and say, “You're going to be a fireman.” You know, my dad was an all state football player. You know, they they were Toledo products, born and raised. 00;06;46;02 - 00;07;11;23 Jim Fielding And from a very early age, I think they acknowledged that Toledo was limiting in a way. I mean, Toledo had, you know, we were tied to the auto industry. So we had a rough history with the- we had rough racial history. We had a rough history with the oil crisis in the 70s. And I think from a very early age, both my sister and I knew that our futures were beyond Toledo, that we weren't going to- we weren't going to go to school in Toledo. 00;07;11;23 - 00;07;30;01 Jim Fielding We were going to go to college, you know, maybe not out of state, but we were definitely not going to go to college in Toledo, even though there was a very good university in Toledo. And I give my parents credit, that's the wings part, is that I just knew my destiny was bigger, and that had nothing to do with my sexuality. 00;07;30;01 - 00;07;59;14 Jim Fielding That was them feeling like there was something better for us outside of Toledo. The complicated unicorn part is that from a very early age, I knew I was gay. I just didn't know what to call it. And then more importantly, I didn't want to be gay. I was fighting it because I thought I was supposed to get married and have two kids and a golden retriever and a white picket fence and, you know, go to my office every day from 9 to 5. 00;07;59;15 - 00;08;17;26 Jim Fielding And, like, I really bought into a lot of that kind of baby boomer Midwestern definition of success. And I wanted to be that. And I and I thought, that's what I was supposed to be. And, you know, as I write about in the book, Representation Matters because I didn't have any role models. Like, I didn't know anybody who was gay. 00;08;18;01 - 00;08;42;23 Jim Fielding If they were, they certainly weren't out. And so I- the role models that I was shown in the 70s and, you know, particularly in the 70s, was, I was supposed to be a cisgender heterosexual white male and all the things that came with that. And, and I couldn't, you know, and as hard as I tried, I just couldn't. 00;08;42;25 - 00;09;11;17 Jim Fielding So, again, the fact that my parents gave me those wings, got me to the university, got me to study overseas in Denmark, like, let me explore professionally and personally. And so I'm so grateful to them. But I, I don't think my parents knew they had a complicated unicorn. I knew that- I knew that I was challenging to them and I was inquisitive and bright and stubborn, and I was a very first born male, and I pushed boundaries constantly. 00;09;11;19 - 00;09;22;05 Jim Fielding I pushed every boundary I could find, so I knew I challenged them, but I don't think, you know, we never really had the sexuality discussion until I was in my 20s. 00;09;22;08 - 00;09;33;18 J.R. Jamison Jamison: And because you're a first born male and thinking about heteronormity [sic] that we grew up with and signals that were sent, and especially being a midwestern myself, knowing the signals that I was sent growing up too. 00;09;33;21 - 00;09;36;21 Jim Fielding Fielding: I wanted to be my dad, I thought I was supposed to be my dad. Right? 00;09;36;22 - 00;10;00;08 Jim Fielding Like, my dad, I mean, how butch could my dad have been you know? Football player, fireman? Like, he was like, all the heteronormatives, right? And I, I think the hardest part, and J.R., I'm sure you kind of understand it, is like, it wasn't that my dad was ever mad at me or frustrated me. I felt that I was disappointing him, like, I think so many of my issues were like, I'm not being- 00;10;00;08 - 00;10;21;16 Jim Fielding I was not only the firstborn son, I was the only son. Right? And so, and by the way, named after him. We have the same name. And so I, I thought I was supposed to be him, like mini-him. Right? And I couldn't. I tried football, I hated it, right? And to his credit, he never forced it. 00;10;21;17 - 00;10;44;03 Jim Fielding And, I don't know why, honestly. Like I never really got to ask him, but he, you know, he had me try it. And like after I think I came home crying from like the first practice and was like, I'm done. And you know, then I yeah, I became a swimmer and a tennis player. Right? Two of the most boring sports for parents to watch on earth, right? 00;10;44;04 - 00;10;49;02 Jim Fielding But God bless him, they were there, you know, at every meet, you know, every match. 00;10;49;04 - 00;11;08;23 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Yeah, I can relate to that because I too, I mean, I feel like this is such a midwest story as well. You know, I grew up in a blue collar home. My dad was a plumber, but I was a theater kid. [Laughs] But my, my dad still showed up, too, to all of my plays. So I love those connections of Midwestern fathers. 00;11;08;23 - 00;11;13;25 J.R. Jamison And in some ways, these expectations we set on ourselves that... 00;11;13;28 - 00;11;14;22 Jim Fielding Fielding: So much. 00;11;14;24 - 00;11;42;13 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Right? ...That our parents maybe really aren't expecting those things of us, but we're sent these signals as we're growing up that we - silent signals - that we should lead lives and a different way than how internally we feel like we should become. And you were able to find your wings and fly like a unicorn. [Laughter] I love that so- Like a unicorn. 00;11;42;15 - 00;12;13;25 J.R. Jamison I want to talk a bit about your Midwest personality. You mentioned that, you know, when you went to Hollywood and people were a little maybe taken aback by your niceness, your friendliness, maybe talking as much as we do in the Midwest and smiling and, right? We just kind of have this “Midwest nice” or friendliness people often talk about. And I've spent time on both coasts significantly, and both coasts have very different personalities, and they're not Midwest personalities. 00;12;14;01 - 00;12;26;22 J.R. Jamison How were you received when you first arrived in some of your executive level jobs outside of the Midwest? Do you feel like your Midwest personality did help propel you forward or...? 00;12;26;26 - 00;12;55;17 Jim Fielding Fielding: Oh definitely, definitely. I mean, I think, I think so much of what helped me propel me forward that I brought from Midwest was the work ethic, right? I mean, I think, I think people viewed me as hardworking. You know, I talk about being a lifelong learner, like I studied and I was eager to learn. And the other thing was I was always lauded for being coachable. 00;12;55;19 - 00;13;19;04 Jim Fielding Like I took feedback, right? And I think that Midwestern humility of, you know, one of my, my favorite lines is, “I love confidence; I hate arrogance,” right? And I never- you understand the difference. Sometimes I have to explain to some people the difference. But most people when I say that like, I get it. And I think coming from the Midwest, we also bring this degree of humility. 00;13;19;04 - 00;13;37;07 Jim Fielding And again, maybe it's the blue collar background or, you know, growing up in a, you know, a 1900 square foot split level house with one and a half bathrooms, like, you know, I just, you know, I went to public school, like, I just think all of that humility and that work ethic I brought with me into the work world, and I wanted to learn. 00;13;37;07 - 00;14;04;07 Jim Fielding So even though I would take a new job and maybe I'd get promoted, I was studying constantly and I was working at night because I wanted to be better, I wanted to grow. I was so driven and so ambitious, but I also just wanted to be, quote, “successful.” Right? And I wanted, I wanted to add value. And I think, you know, one of my, my lifelong phrases has been, “May we leave our corner of the world better than we found it.” 00;14;04;07 - 00;14;22;25 Jim Fielding And I think I approached my career like that too, is like, anytime I went into a new role, I wanted to feel like I was adding value and that I was learning and growing, but also I was adding value for my employer or my team or the people around me. And so I wanted to be viewed as, as a good boss. 00;14;22;25 - 00;14;36;10 Jim Fielding I wanted to be viewed as a good employee. I wanted to be viewed as a good peer. And I think a lot of that was very Midwestern. And so many people 00;14;36;12 - 00;14;57;17 Jim Fielding comment on it. You know, they're like, oh, you're so humble. And oh, you're this. And I'm like, I mean, it's just who I am. I mean, you know, I'm proud of what I've done. I have had an amazing career. I'm aware of that. I'm also aware that I didn't do it in my own right, that the only way I got there was through some incredible mentors and some luck and some hiring some smart people around me. 00;14;57;18 - 00;15;04;08 Jim Fielding Like I'm the first one to give credit to others. Like I did not do it on my own. 00;15;04;10 - 00;15;27;18 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Staying on this identity piece, you also identify as a queer or gay man. And when I look back at my own life and career, also as someone who identifies as a gay man, I often wonder if I would have been as successful in my career had I not been born gay. Do you ever think about that? I mean, that crosses my mind all the time because I just... 00;15;27;19 - 00;15;44;25 Jim Fielding Fielding: Totally, I, yeah, it's a great question. I get asked a lot this on the book tour, and I, I'm better at answering it now because when I first got asked it, I was like, I don't know, like I need to think about it. Like, and I, I would get back on the plane after, you know, a book tour stop and I think, God, am I- 00;15;45;02 - 00;16;20;03 Jim Fielding I, here's, here's what I think. I, you know, the first four years of my career, I was in the closet and I didn't come out until I was 26. And I do know that my career trajectory when I made the decision to live as a now gay man changed. And so my theory on my own trajectory and my theory on authentic leadership and the environments I’m trying to create is that if you're allowed and encouraged to bring 100% of yourself to work, you're going to perform better. 00;16;20;05 - 00;16;43;22 Jim Fielding And if you're not worrying about living the double life or changing the pronouns or not sharing your story completely, I think you're more free to perform at a higher level. And so I think my answer is now, of course my career was launched by the fact that I was gay. And in a weird way, it may be my superpower. 00;16;43;22 - 00;17;14;28 Jim Fielding It may be that it made me a better leader because I am compassionate and maybe more empathetic, and I have higher emotional, you know, EQ and you know, but again, 4 or 5 months ago when I started on the book tour, I don't think I was answering it that way. I think it was more, I don't know, but I think, I think I would have had a successful career as a straight man because I'm smart and I'm inquisitive. 00;17;14;28 - 00;17;39;17 Jim Fielding Like, those things don't change. That foundation doesn't change. I think where the gay comes in is I have, like I said, a higher level of empathy. I'm very collaborative and very team conscious. I’m very conscious of, like, creating. Like, I was creating diverse and inclusive and belonging work sites way before anybody was talking about it, because I was so conscious of, I had felt marginalized so many times in my life. 00;17;39;17 - 00;17;46;26 Jim Fielding I never wanted anyone to feel marginalized. I think that's kind of the gay layer that's on it. 00;17;46;28 - 00;18;10;28 J.R. Jamison Jamison: And when I think about leadership too and what you're saying, having more emotional and empathetic approach to your leadership style, I sometimes on my own reflections as a gay man, I think that it is because we spend a significant portion of our lives being aware of our surroundings and knowing what's safe, what's not safe. 00;18;11;01 - 00;18;11;18 Jim Fielding Fielding: [Laughing] Yeah. 00;18;11;25 - 00;18;30;17 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Can I come out and be my authentic self in this place? And I think that inward reflection of our experiences do create us to become a little more empathetic. But then again, I've always been gay, right? Like you said, you've known that you were a kid. So when I get asked that question, too, I'm kind of like, I don't know. 00;18;30;17 - 00;18;42;19 J.R. Jamison I don't know how I would have been if I would have been born straight. But I do think, maybe it's something about that reflective and just awareness of our surroundings growing up that makes us more empathetic, maybe? 00;18;42;20 - 00;19;06;14 Jim Fielding Fielding: Well, yeah, yeah, I don't want to stereotype, but I think as queer kids, we spent a lot of time in our head. Right? We spent a lot of time talking to ourselves, sometimes good talk, sometimes bad talk. And so I think we're very self-aware. But it's so interesting what you bring up in those comments, J.R., because I do think we have a higher level of, like, reading a room. 00;19;06;16 - 00;19;38;25 Jim Fielding Right? Because we're, we're looking for safety. So I think we're able to assess rooms and situations and meetings pretty quickly. Like I think we synthesize information and, you know, in a weird way, it's kind of self-preservation and safety because you're like, are these people going to be friendlies or not friendlies? Right? And you also mentioned, you know, so many, so many people ask me, you know, of course, we all have the coming out story, which is basically they're asking me, “when did you tell your parents?” is usually what that means. 00;19;38;27 - 00;20;04;09 Jim Fielding Yeah. But the reality is I'm 58 years old and I still come out every time I walk into a new situation because, like you, when we first enter a room, we're white men. Like, the first thing we are are white men. The systems are built for us, right? And until we choose to share our stories or share our authenticity, we don't really marginalize ourselves until we we share that story. 00;20;04;10 - 00;20;23;18 Jim Fielding Right? And, and so that's why I say to people a lot of times, I'm like, I've been coming out for, you know, 31, 32 years now, right? Every time I enter a new situation, I'm coming out anytime I meet somebody new. But I'm always assessing how much of my story I'm going to share. And that doesn't mean I'm being inauthentic. 00;20;23;19 - 00;20;25;14 Jim Fielding It just means I'm being protected. 00;20;25;16 - 00;20;37;18 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Yeah, I think that's a perfect way to say that. Take me back to your early days as you navigated your career. Were you able to be your authentic self in those early days? 00;20;37;20 - 00;21;00;15 Jim Fielding Fielding: Not the first job. You know, I mean, my, my first job where I was the executive trainee in a department store company, you know, the first four years of my career, like 22 to 25, 26. No, I was living a double life. I was super careful about- I had a partner, but he was not involved in anything, you know, work related. 00;21;00;15 - 00;21;25;09 Jim Fielding No after dinner drinks or holiday parties or anything like that. You know, constantly changing pronouns, not really sharing anything about what I did on the weekends or, you know, just, you know, really kept my work and home separated. And it started, as I write about in the book, it started to have some- it created problems for me. It was creating mental strain. 00;21;25;10 - 00;21;47;13 Jim Fielding It was creating physical strain. I was having kind of, like, old man issues at 23 and 24. I was having stomach issues. I was having migraines. And the doctor, when I would go to the doctor with these complaints, the doctors would always start to ask about mental stress and mental strain. Right? And I'd be like, I don't know, I don't have any, like I'm fine, right? 00;21;47;14 - 00;22;13;27 Jim Fielding And then, you know, they kind of probe a little bit more and I get back in the car and I'm like, oh my God, I'm, I have a ton of mobile. Like I, you know, I was lying to my parents, I was lying at work, and I was literally living a double life. And that's, you know, the story I tell is that's when I made the decision to leave that company, is that I felt that I was, I, I felt that my career would have been limited had I fully embraced my truth. 00;22;14;00 - 00;22;37;13 Jim Fielding And I consciously looked for a new company where I could be my complete self. And that was the Gap. And, you know, I knew they were based in San Francisco. And, you know, I've told the story, you know, in the book and, you know, on the book tour of like, interviewing as a gay man, and that I went into all of those interviews, I think I had 5 or 6 interviews, every one of them, 00;22;37;13 - 00;22;56;20 Jim Fielding I was 100% myself. And that doesn't mean I walked in and said, “Hi, I'm gay,” you know, “Hire me,” right? But it meant that the way I answered questions and the way that I responded to, what do I do on the weekends, and what, what, what are my hobbies, and who... You know. Nobody asked, you know, “Were you married? 00;22;56;20 - 00;23;16;18 Jim Fielding Do you have a partner?” or anything, but if, if it came up, I would say “he” and not make a big deal out of it. But in a weird way, it was like a litmus test. I was testing to see if there was any yellow or red flags for the people that were interviewing me, because I thought, okay, if they if it comes up and I'm feeling insecure or they seem to change their demeanor, then I'm not going to be comfortable at this company. 00;23;16;19 - 00;23;40;10 Jim Fielding And in fact, it was quite the opposite. And, and everybody I interviewed with, ironically, was straight but obviously were allies and obviously were comfortable with the situation. And so when, you know, day one in orientation at Gap, I presented as full Jim, you know, it was, it was all of me. And I think my career after that changed. 00;23;40;11 - 00;23;43;22 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Yeah. And this was in the 90s, correct? 00;23;43;24 - 00;23;47;13 Jim Fielding Fielding: Yeah. Late, late 80s, early 90s. 00;23;47;17 - 00;24;00;06 J.R. Jamison Jamison: And at that time, thinking about corporate America, I could be wrong, but I would say that most corporations probably were not openly queer friendly or creating an environment, right? 00;24;00;07 - 00;24;01;03 Jim Fielding Fielding: Yeah, right. 00;24;01;04 - 00;24;23;10 Jim Fielding There was no DEI. There was not a pride group. There was no- you know, as you know, J.R., those of us, you know, in my generation, it was the height of the AIDS crisis, you know, and so not only- I think a lot of people, especially uneducated people- like, you would say, “I'm gay,” and then they automatically assumed you had HIV or that you had AIDS, right? 00;24;23;12 - 00;24;46;06 Jim Fielding And that you were going to die young. And so I think there was a lot of insecurities around our community. There was a lot of fear about our communities. You know, I mean, it's interesting, I wrote on social media a couple of weeks ago about the fact that we can now donate blood, like, you know, we were, we were banned. 00;24;46;06 - 00;25;06;24 Jim Fielding We were banned from donating blood from the 80s. Right? I remember even living in San Francisco, there was only certain dentists that I could even go to as an out gay man. And that was in San Francisco, right? Because there were so many concerns about the fluids in your mouth, like when they're cleaning your teeth. And, and that was in San Francisco. 00;25;06;26 - 00;25;37;01 Jim Fielding Right? So, you know, if I, if I had been living somewhere else, you know, back in the Midwest and probably would have been even worse. Right? And so I think there weren't a lot of corporate structures. There weren't a lot of formal or informal support for any marginalized community, not just the queer community. That definitely has come much more into vogue in the last 15 or 20 years, but in my early career. 00;25;37;03 - 00;25;41;17 Jim Fielding I'm not saying I was a pioneer, but I'm just saying you were kind of out there on your own. You know. 00;25;41;20 - 00;26;00;13 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Yeah, I mean, you took a real risk being your authentic self with Gap. And it worked out, right? Gap did end up being an inclusive company. When did you start to see- Outside of Gap, when did you start to see that corporations were shifting and moving more toward inclusive environments? 00;26;00;15 - 00;26;20;04 Jim Fielding Fielding: You know, I started to see it kind of in the late 90s, you know, more in the middle to late 90s, you know, as the AIDS - I mean, we haven't solved the AIDS crisis, but it became more under control. And again, I had I have to be careful because I was living in California, which was always kind of ahead of the curve. 00;26;20;04 - 00;26;43;29 Jim Fielding And so I think there was definitely geographic differences. But I started to see companies like Levi's and Spree at the time, like you started to see more- Like if you think about even things like the Benetton ads, if you remember Benetton, you know, which was like, like you started, you started to see more representation again. You started to see more inclusivity. 00;26;44;01 - 00;27;16;21 Jim Fielding I mean, again, pivotal moments for us as a queer community. But Will and Grace, right? When Will and Grace came out, when Ellen, you know, the whole Ellen moment, right? We started, you started to see it in television. You started to see it in movies. You started, like, you just started to see representation of more like real gay people, you know, not sad, sick, you know, gay people. 00;27;16;23 - 00;27;46;09 Jim Fielding Philadelphia movie, I explicitly remember the Philadelphia movie starring Tom Hanks and Denzel Washington. There was just these moments in, like, pop culture and movies and television where it just- You started to see yourself up on the screen, right? And you started, and you started to say, okay, that, that is a real relationship. That's real what they're going through. So I would say- And again, you know, but I know even from my travels with the book tour, it's not the same in every state. 00;27;46;09 - 00;28;08;15 Jim Fielding It's not the same in every location. I mean, I know we're on Indiana Public Radio, but, you know, God bless Texas and Florida, right? Like I, I've spent time in both of those states. I've not done a book tour in Florida yet; I've done it in Texas, and it feels different there. It definitely feels different. And the queer community there is under attack, for sure. 00;28;08;15 - 00;28;15;28 Jim Fielding We're under attack everywhere, but particularly in certain locations, they're under attack. So I don't think we can take anything for granted. 00;28;16;04 - 00;28;41;24 J.R. Jamison Jamison: It makes me think about last summer, the Bud Light boycott, right? Because during this time of being inclusive and to where we've gotten today, so many more corporations are embracing LGBTQ culture and expressing their support. And last summer is quite alarming to suddenly see... 00;28;41;26 - 00;28;42;07 Jim Fielding Fielding: [Cautious laughter] Yeah, the backlash. 00;28;42;09 - 00;28;45;18 J.R. Jamison Jamison: ...folks Boycott Bud Light, right? And it became this huge thing. 00;28;45;19 - 00;28;48;13 Jim Fielding Fielding: And Target, and Target. Yeah. 00;28;48;14 - 00;29;01;03 J.R. Jamison Jamison: And sales started to drop. There were some Targets pulling pride gear, products. What do you, what do you think about that? What do you say about that, this moment in time that we're in? 00;29;01;05 - 00;29;31;18 Jim Fielding Fielding: Well, I mean, I think, I think as, as a community, we have to double down and tell our stories, and again, not take anything for granted. And, you know, I write in the book what I, what I underestimated or didn't anticipate is just by sharing my story, I become an activist. Right? And I think, I think by living as an out, proud gay man with the history I have and moving through the world and all of me, it's a form of activism. 00;29;31;18 - 00;29;52;07 Jim Fielding And in a weird way, I'm educating people as I do it, because I actually wrote an opinion piece about Target, because I've been a Target customer for a long time and Target fan, and I know that Target Corporation has been hugely supportive of the queer community for years. They were one of the first companies to offer domestic partner benefits. 00;29;52;09 - 00;30;16;21 Jim Fielding I think they're one of the first companies, to your point about pride groups and things like that. And so basically, in my opinion piece, as I said, I don't like the way they handled 2023, but I don't think we can throw the baby out with the bathwater. We can't just, like- what happened to Target that I was frustrated about is the far right came after them and then the left abandoned them, got mad at them and said, “Oh my God, they moved our product to the back. 00;30;16;21 - 00;30;34;11 Jim Fielding Or they took our product off the floor.” And I, on the other hand, I was at, I was in Northern Michigan at the time, and I went to the Target in Traverse City, and even though the product was back, I went in and bought $200 worth of the product and was like giving it to friends, because I said, as a community, we need to support them. 00;30;34;11 - 00;31;02;25 Jim Fielding They have been an ally for over 20 years. Okay. I don't like the way that they handled this, but that doesn't mean that we can 100% abandon them, because if the- if we abandon them because it's our community that they're trying to support, they'll never do a pride collection again, right? And that isn't the right thing either. And so much of what frustrated me in the Bud Light situation and the Target situation is I felt like the only narrative that was coming out was the right narrative, right? 00;31;02;26 - 00;31;32;04 Jim Fielding The conservative narrative who were saying horrible things about our community, untruths about our community, outright lies about our community, about what we do and supposedly do and children and all this stuff. And I was like, we on the- if it's the left, and I don't even know if I fully believe on the political spectrum, but those with the opposing point of view, it's incumbent upon us to be on shows like yours, J.R., to write stories, to say that is not the truth. 00;31;32;05 - 00;31;57;04 Jim Fielding Like, I am an out, proud 58 year old gay man. I am not recruiting children, I am not. I am not trying to do anything to your family. I respect- All I'm asking for is simple human rights and simple respect and to love who I want to love and live who I want to live. And it, you know, me buying a t-shirt at Target is not hurting your lifestyle. 00;31;57;04 - 00;32;24;14 Jim Fielding And by the way, if you don't want to buy the t-shirt, you don't have to. But you also cannot go in and knock over the displays or, you know, [background chatter] or terrorize the, terrorize the employees that work there, right? Like that's also not, that's also not acceptable. So I really feel this backlash, I think, like, it concerns me. 00;32;24;14 - 00;32;48;28 Jim Fielding There's been a lot of articles lately about the erosion of support for the queer community, for the right to marry. Like, it concerns me because I feel that a certain part of the political spectrum has been effective in telling stories that are not true, but we have to then tell our stories of truth and meet people. And, and we've done it before. 00;32;48;28 - 00;33;17;16 Jim Fielding We did it with- we did it in the 60s. We did it with the AIDS crisis. We did it when we got the right to marry in 2015. We have to tell our stories. And, and I never thought about that when the book was coming out, right? I, I never thought about getting pulled into these conversations, but I have to because I'm trying to make it better for the next generation and protect our community. 00;33;17;19 - 00;33;44;26 J.R. Jamison Jamison: What advice would you have for a CEO or a senior leader of a corporation who feel like they're caught in this crossfire, that they want to be inclusive and be supportive of the LGBTQ+ community, but they're finding themselves, right, their product being boycotted, people destroying displays in their stores. What advice would you have for them? 00;33;44;29 - 00;34;24;06 Jim Fielding Fielding: I mean, I think so much of it is them looking at their own personal morals and ethics and standards and having courage in their convictions. Like, do they personally, like to do that inventory, like a personal self-awareness inventory, if they fundamentally believe that marginalized communities, the queer community, the black community, whoever marginalized community, have a right to have the same access to services and safety and respect and empowerment that the majority, you know, the white community has. 00;34;24;07 - 00;34;45;25 Jim Fielding If you fundamentally believe that as a person, then you really want to try to make your corporation reflect that, I believe, and I think you have to- So I think it starts with a personal inventory. And then it's like looking at the team that you have around you. If you're I mean, whether you're publicly traded or privately traded, what's your relationship with your board of directors? 00;34;45;27 - 00;35;04;24 Jim Fielding Because at the end of the day, the question is, are you going to have courage in your convictions when you have the backlash? Right? And, and it's almost like you prepare for the backlash. And that's honestly, back to Target for a moment, I know the C-suite at Target. I've sold to them, like I, you know, I worked with them when I was at Disney. 00;35;04;24 - 00;35;25;26 Jim Fielding I worked with them when I said Dreamworks and Fox. I have a ton of respect for them. Where I got frustrated with them just as an executive was, guys, get your speaking points together. Like where, where is your response to this? Like, why are you not coming out and explaining why you did the pride collection and why you've done the pride collection for the last 15 years? 00;35;25;27 - 00;35;48;29 Jim Fielding And, and I felt that, like, they almost overreacted to the negative feedback. Bud Light did the same thing, right? And, and then, you know, all of a sudden they're losing market share and stuff. Well, part of the reason they’re losing market share is because they didn't appeal to those of us on the left or the other side of the political spectrum to say, “Support us, stick with us.” 00;35;49;05 - 00;36;09;23 Jim Fielding Right? Like, they kind of made both ends of the spectrum mad. And then the people in the middle were just kind of confused, right? It just was a lot of confusion. So, you know, I do have some clients I work with now who have talked to me about this topic and, and, and like I said, it starts with, do you have courage in your convictions personally? 00;36;09;23 - 00;36;31;21 Jim Fielding And then as a company, if you don't have the support of your board of directors and your employees, that's a different, that's a different conversation because you have a fiduciary responsibility to your company. And if- and here's the, here's the other thing, J.R., you know, like if you're only doing pride in the month of June because you think you can get some sales off of rainbow merchandise, don't bother. 00;36;31;23 - 00;36;58;25 Jim Fielding Right? Like, we don't need you. Like, honestly, I don't want to walk into every store in America and see rainbows slapped on things. I want authentic pride merchandise. And if that means there's less pride merchandise in the world, but it's better quality and it's truly, it truly supports the community, I'm fine with that. So if you're only doing it because you needed something to sell in June, don't, don't do it, right? 00;36;58;27 - 00;37;08;12 Jim Fielding And, and by the way, we need you to be supporters of our community 12 months a year, not just the month of June. Right? Like, all year. 00;37;08;14 - 00;37;38;13 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Yeah. And I think telling that story, as you said, they- some folks did a bad job of telling the story of why they have pride displays or why they're being inclusive in that way. And it's almost like they need their own “coming out” of saying, this is why we support this. And it is a year long thing, and it's not just June, because I know too as a gay man, sometimes when I see a company not talk about our community the other 11 months of the year, but in June they're just splashing the rainbow everywhere, 00;37;38;17 - 00;37;41;24 J.R. Jamison That does give me a little pause. I will say. But there’s... 00;37;41;29 - 00;37;43;02 Jim Fielding Fielding: Totally. It doesn't feel authentic. 00;37;43;04 - 00;38;06;25 J.R. Jamison Jamison: No, it doesn't feel authentic. So I love that idea of they need to better tell the story, but it's almost a coming out story of saying how they support our community, why they support our community, and why they're inclusive of all identities, whatever that may be for marginalized communities. I love that concept. Are there companies that you think are doing it well? 00;38;06;27 - 00;38;41;25 Jim Fielding Fielding: Oh, yeah. I mean, ironically, I mean, my alma mater, Gap, I think has done it well. I think, listen, Disney has been through the meat grinder in Florida, and I think, I think, you know, the governor of Florida has a vendetta against Disney and has been- the entire legislature has been, you know, slapping them around. And I feel that, you know, Bob Iger and his executive team and their message and- You know, and I do think Disney has done a good job of telling the story of its, you know, our consumer base has LGBTQ people in it. 00;38;41;25 - 00;39;03;23 Jim Fielding Our employee base has LGBTQ people in it. Like, we're doing this because we fundamentally believe queer rights are human rights. And, you know, they've really I mean, they're in legal fights over it, right? I mean, it's beyond just, you know, a fight in the press. I mean, they're in the courts over some of that stuff, and they are sticking with their convictions. 00;39;03;23 - 00;39;22;07 Jim Fielding So again, I think Lululemon has done good job. Like, yeah, I think Patagonia has done a good job. I, you know, I think there's there's quite a few. Did Bud Light handle it well? No. You know. And did Target handle it the way I would want them to? No. But I'm not willing to give up on either of them. 00;39;22;09 - 00;39;48;26 J.R. Jamison Jamison: I want to talk a little bit about mentorship. You write in your book that, when you went through your coming up, not coming out, but coming up through your career phase, you never really had a gay or queer mentor. And when I look back on my own life and career, that's true as well. Do you think that there's still a glass ceiling for gays, for LGBTQ+ community that needs to be broken? 00;39;48;26 - 00;39;56;15 J.R. Jamison Or do you think that our generation - and our generation, we both identify as Generation X, and you write that you're kind of on the cusp of Boomer... 00;39;56;16 - 00;39;57;08 Jim Fielding Fielding: The edge of the Baby... yeah. 00;39;57;08 - 00;40;06;11 J.R. Jamison Jamison: ...and I'm on the other cusp of, of Xer going into, I think they call us “Xennials,” right? Like the cusp of Xers going into Millennial. Yeah. 00;40;06;13 - 00;40;07;23 Jim Fielding Fielding: You’re almost...Millennials. Yes. 00;40;07;26 - 00;40;32;13 J.R. Jamison Jamison: But we're both in that Xer category. And in that span of time between when you came up through your career and I'm coming up through my career, there has been a bit of that gap in between there. But in that gap I don't- I have not experienced queer mentors. Do you think that the glass ceiling still needs to be broken, or do you think that it has been broken, but we're just still kind of coming out, for lack of better words? 00;40;32;14 - 00;40;56;05 Jim Fielding Fielding: I think, I think it's cracked. I don't think it's 100% broken. I think we've bumped our head against it. I call it the rainbow ceiling, right? I think glass ceiling, you know, women kind of- It was women were glass ceiling. I think we're rainbow ceiling. And some days I wake up and I hate to admit it, but it's like we're the elders now, right? 00;40;56;06 - 00;41;13;25 Jim Fielding It's like it's- And I think that's where the mentorship, you know, point in question comes in is I think the generation above us had it harder than we had it. I mean, if you, you know, you go back and think of the lavender days and, you know, the vanishing society. And like, if you really go back and look at gay history, 00;41;13;26 - 00;41;34;09 Jim Fielding I mean, Stonewall, obviously, I was a baby, you know, a toddler when Stonewall happened. I mean, I think, I think- so I’m 58, I think people who are 65, 70 had much differently than I had it. And I think the generations after us have it different. Like I think it's been, you know, the way is that getting progressively paved. 00;41;34;10 - 00;42;05;14 Jim Fielding And I think, again, I think we have a responsibility. So much of what drives me with the book and with the tour and speaking opportunities like this is that I'm trying to make it easier for the next generations. And, you know, when I see data and research that, you know, 20% of 18 to 24 is identify as queer, I mean that, that's an amazing number for somebody like me who we've been living with, like the 10% rule forever, right? 00;42;05;15 - 00;42;27;05 Jim Fielding Like 10%. And that they're openly- And I see it when I go to college campuses, I see, I see every color of the rainbow and every, and every kind of gender identity. And I think there's times where I just step back, again, with humility, but like, wow, maybe what we went through has made it easier for them, you know? 00;42;27;06 - 00;42;48;16 Jim Fielding And you know, when I am doing a book signing and, you know, a lovely mom and dad walk up to me and say, “Will you sign this for my transgender daughter?” and her openly sharing their story with me. And I think, oh my God, that wouldn't have happened, I think, even five years ago. I don't think it would have happened ten years ago. 00;42;48;17 - 00;43;13;25 Jim Fielding And so that's why I say I think there's cracks. I think that's part of why I wrote the book. I mean, it's funny, it took me a while to decide to write the book, J.R., and part of why I wrote the book is I had enough people telling me, I mean, editors and people in my life who had said, “Jim, you're part of cracking [the glass], and you've been in the C-suite, like, you've been the president of Disney Store, you've been the CEO of Claire’s stores, like, you made it, like, talk about it. 00;43;13;25 - 00;43;41;16 Jim Fielding Right? Because you, you, you know, you talk about representation. You talk about giving back. You talk about making it easier. You know, making the world a better place. Okay. Well, tell the story so that younger people understand it's possible.” And, you know, really the publisher, you know, John Wiley and Shannon and Janine, my publishers, the thing that they unlocked for me, J.R., in the book was: at the time, I was 56 years old, 00;43;41;17 - 00;44;20;17 Jim Fielding they said, write the book that 26 year old Jim wished he would have had. So, 56 year old Jim write to 26 year old Jim. And that unlocked everything for me. It unlocked the the outline, the ten lessons. And it became a very selfish exercise where I was basically writing to myself. And, and it is- and that, that's- I love that everybody is liking the book, but I love that young people are coming up to me and saying how much they appreciate the book, because that's kind of who I wrote it for, in a weird way. 00;44;20;19 - 00;44;24;18 J.R. Jamison Jamison: And they're the next generation to be in those C-suite positions. 00;44;24;20 - 00;44;58;02 Jim Fielding Fielding: And they’ll make, make it better for them, yeah, they'll make it better for the next people. And so I do think, listen, I think pure numbers, the C-suite board seats, all that things, we are horribly underrepresented as a queer community. But we're not the only marginalized community that's underrepresented. People of color are underrepresented. Women are underrepresented. And just using the old averages that I just referenced, if 10% of the population is queer, then you think 10% of CEOs should be queer, and we're nowhere near that. 00;44;58;05 - 00;45;06;23 Jim Fielding 10% of board seats should be queer. We're nowhere near that. And so that's why I think there's still a rainbow ceiling. 00;45;06;26 - 00;45;29;26 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Gen Z though, they've been expressive in not backing down from who they are. So do you think as Gen Z begins to move into more professional positions and into the corporate world, do you think that Gen Z will be the generation to bust that rainbow ceiling right through? 00;45;29;28 - 00;45;53;18 Jim Fielding Fielding: I think they will, as long as those of us in the elder world create some structures and support for them, because they will butt up against these systems and these structures that are not built for them. And so the other thing that I love about Gen Z is they will fight it, but also if they don't see what they like in a company, they'll just leave and go to another one or they'll start their own company, right? 00;45;53;19 - 00;46;26;24 Jim Fielding They’re so, they're so free and they're so entrepreneurial. And so I think that's where those of us that have platforms and have voices need to be creating the runway, let's just say. Right? And I think if we create the runway and the safety net, then they will be able to thrive because they still- the reality is, even for Gen Z, they will enter some of these corporations, some of these industries, and they will be marginalized and they will be the minority and the majority will fight back. 00;46;26;25 - 00;46;45;16 Jim Fielding Right? And so I think it's so much of my message of authentic leadership is about creating those safe, respectful, empowering spaces for them to thrive and, and to lead with all of them, all of themselves. 00;46;45;17 - 00;47;10;04 J.R. Jamison Jamison: And you have five steps that you develop that you outlined in your book that I think leads to what you're saying, to create a more inclusive and equitable society and business. I'm just going to read through these real quickly for our listeners. “One,” you have, “know and love yourself unconditionally and bring the best of you to your work environment every day. Two, stay constantly curious and be a lifelong learner. 00;47;10;10 - 00;47;40;25 J.R. Jamison Listen, think, learn, and grow. Three, be a Pearl Hunter.” I love that. “Recruit, train, promote and reward everyone's special talent on your team. Four, build authentic, empowering, and safe work environments where people feel like they belong and can believe in the mission.” And, “Five, control the controllable, but leave space for the possible in the spontaneous.” Leading and knowing and love, loving oneself unconditionally, 00;47;40;26 - 00;47;56;11 J.R. Jamison I think, does create an environment that encourages others to be authentic to much of what we've talked about. But what's the best question a leader can ask to understand someone else's lived experience? 00;47;56;14 - 00;48;23;10 Jim Fielding Fielding: Yeah, I think, I think it's about, you know, kind of, number one is, like, walk the walk and talk the talk, right? I mean, like in classic business speak. And I think, the best leaders- and it kind of goes back to the question you asked me earlier that I never had a queer boss or a queer mentor, but I had bosses who said to me, “What can I do to bring the best of you out? 00;48;23;11 - 00;48;53;01 Jim Fielding Like, what can I do to make your job easier and to get the best performance out of you?” And I think that's honestly the best question is, is talking to people in marginalized communities or your marginalized employees and having an honest conversation with them and saying, “Listen, I have not lived your experience,” right? Like I, I am not a black woman, for example, but I've had a lot of black women that have worked with me and been in, you know, promoted and grown and everything else. I've learned from them. 00;48;53;01 - 00;49;29;07 Jim Fielding And I literally will say to them, “Teach me.” Like, “What, what can I do differently?” And by the way, if I say something wrong, which, by the way, I've said wrong things over the years, I've used, I've used wrong pronouns, I've used, you know, that my [unintelligible]- like, I am not perfect, but I think as a boss to sit with an employee or an employee group and say, “I want to be better and I want to make it better for you, and I want you to be here a long time, and be productive, and be happy, and, and be complete.” 00;49;29;09 - 00;49;50;17 Jim Fielding That's the best. Like asking open ended questions is basically what I'm saying, and being an active listener. Right? And so I think right now, with all the situation we have going on with anti-Semitism, right? I mean, anti-Semitism is everywhere in the news right now because of the Gaza-Israel situation and Islamophobia. And there's some horrible things going on. 00;49;50;17 - 00;50;13;08 Jim Fielding There's some horrible hate speech going on and horrible personal safety issues, even on college campuses. So as a leader, if, you know, if I was back at Fox or I was back at Disney, I would be sitting with my Jewish employees and saying, “How are you feeling?” Like, “Tell me,” like, “is there- Are there microaggressions going on in the workplace that I can control? 00;50;13;10 - 00;50;37;14 Jim Fielding Do you feel safe at work?” Like, I, because I am in a position to fix things, right? I can't- It's goes to the control the controllable thing, J.R.. I cannot control the Israel-Gaza situation. I cannot control President Biden's actions or President Netanyahu's actions, like, it's a horrible humanitarian crisis going on. I am not in control of that. But in a workspace, 00;50;37;14 - 00;51;01;19 Jim Fielding If I, if I'm the president of consumer products at Fox, I'm in control of that workspace. I'm in control of the 100 people that worked at my team at Fox. And if we have situations, microaggressions or insecurity or things going on, I needed to know and I needed to address that and fix that. And so, if I was still at Fox, I would be talking to my Jewish employees, but not only my Jewish employees. 00;51;01;20 - 00;51;23;16 Jim Fielding I would have been pulling my team together virtually or in person and talking about the situation, because even though it's uncomfortable, it's reality, and if, in my mind - this kind of goes back to the Pearl Hunter - If 1 or 2 people on your team are insecure and not bringing the best of themselves to work, that's impacting the entire team. 00;51;23;16 - 00;51;34;14 Jim Fielding And, and, and I do have control as the leader to try and make it better. Like, to fix what I can fix. 00;51;34;17 - 00;51;45;07 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Thinking about a virtual work environment and your five steps and everything that we just talked about, I mean, the pandemic did change work environments... 00;51;45;07 - 00;51;45;15 Jim Fielding Fielding: Yes. 00;51;45;18 - 00;52;07;23 J.R. Jamison Jamison: ...I think, for my opinion, forever. You know, I hear some people say like, “Oh no, eventually we'll go completely back. Everyone will be in an office.” I'm not so sure about that. And in fact, Forbes just published an article in June of ‘23 saying nearly 13% of Americans work from home full time, while 28% work in a hybrid environment. 00;52;07;23 - 00;52;31;19 J.R. Jamison And by 2025, it's projected that 33 million Americans will work from home full time. What advice do you have for CEOs and other leaders on maintaining that inclusive and equitable environment in this work culture shift that seems here to stay, where we can be on a Zoom team meeting, but then just click away and be by ourselves. How do we maintain these inclusive environments? 00;52;31;22 - 00;52;51;09 Jim Fielding Fielding: Yeah, I, I think it's harder, I won't lie. I mean, I think most of my career and most of my best skill sets are more kind of in real life and physical. But I've developed new skill sets in the last three, you know, three years, like many of us have. And, you know, acknowledging those trends and facts that you just shared, 00;52;51;09 - 00;53;18;12 Jim Fielding and I think they're absolutely true. There are still a lot of things you can do in a virtual environment to encourage collaboration, encourage education, encourage training. I mean, there's online trainings you can do. There's online, you know, I- because of who I am, I still love physically pulling people together in a room. And, you know, being able to sit and talk around a table and, and feel the energy and make eye contact and all that kind of stuff. 00;53;18;16 - 00;53;36;24 Jim Fielding But I do think you can do it virtually as well. I do think, you know, you know, tools like Zoom that we're on right now- I think there are some really good tools out there. And my advice with a, with a geographically dispersed or a hybrid workforce is, as a leader, you have to work even harder to pull that together. 00;53;36;24 - 00;54;06;11 Jim Fielding So it's like, don't communicate less, communicate more. And when you're pulling people together, whether it's digitally or physically, make sure there's a valid purpose for that and that there's outcomes for that. Because the one thing that I see, particularly with hybrid working, when I advise some of the clients I've worked with, I hate to walk into an office, like if you're telling somebody they have to come back to the office for 2 or 3 days a week, like they're hybrid, and then the entire day they're sitting in like one of those cubicles on, on calls like this, then you're not- 00;54;06;12 - 00;54;37;11 Jim Fielding Then there's no reason for them to be hybrid, and they're going to get frustrated and they're going to say, “I could have just done this from home.” And so what I've said to leaders that I work with is, when you have them in an office environment, make sure you're doing things that can only happen in an office environment, like, like have meetings, have brainstorms, have events, trainings that can only happen when they're all together, and kind of figure out what works digitally and what works physically the best. 00;54;37;14 - 00;54;55;15 Jim Fielding And I just think it's the reality of being a leader post-pandemic. I agree with you. I don't think I agree with all these trends. I agree with what you said. I don't think it's going to change back. I don't think, I don't think the world- certain companies will be back to five days a week, but I think not everybody. 00;54;55;16 - 00;55;02;01 Jim Fielding And so as a leader, you're going to have to learn to lead physically, digitally and hybrid. 00;55;02;03 - 00;55;03;14 Jim Fielding You just have to. 00;55;03;16 - 00;55;09;18 J.R. Jamison Jamison: And I’m with you, I really enjoy whiteboard sessions and not the whiteboard on Zoom. I enjoy being in a room... 00;55;09;18 - 00;55;10;13 Jim Fielding Fielding: Me too. 00;55;10;15 - 00;55;26;23 J.R. Jamison Jamison: with people, and we're, you know, the energy, like you said, and doing that. And so that is kind of a hard transition. But I do think it's here to stay. And you've talked about this. You write about it. And I do think your recommendations are really important for leaders to consider because these trends are increasing, right? They're not- 00;55;26;24 - 00;55;31;15 J.R. Jamison It's, I mean, it's becoming the norm. It's becoming less of a trend and becoming the norm. 00;55;31;18 - 00;55;51;06 Jim Fielding Fielding: And and we've seen backlash, like, employee backlash of people when they mandate 100% return to the office. There was a great example of it about three months ago with Grindr, where that CEO came in and said, “We're going to be five days a week in the office, and you have a choice. You can either take a severance package or work five days a week 00;55;51;06 - 00;55;55;22 Jim Fielding in the office.” 50%, five zero percent, of that workforce took the package. 00;55;55;23 - 00;55;57;18 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Wow, wow. 00;55;57;19 - 00;56;24;06 Jim Fielding And, and I don't think the CEO ever anticipated that. Right? And so. That, I don't know if, if they regret it now, but I think that brain drain was probably not what they were going for. And so I think, again, I think this has to do with the younger generations. They'll just go find another job, right? They’re like, if this job doesn't fit my expectations of what it means to work, I'm not going to work here. 00;56;24;08 - 00;56;37;00 Jim Fielding And especially if you're in a major metropolitan like Los Angeles or San Francisco or Chicago or New York, Seattle, there's a lot of jobs available. And they'll, they'll just go find another one. 00;56;37;02 - 00;56;54;00 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Going back to our earlier conversations about the responsibility corporations have and thinking about your five steps, what role do you think corporations play in creating a more just and equitable society beyond their own walls? 00;56;54;03 - 00;57;29;28 Jim Fielding Fielding: Well, I think unfortunately they play an increasingly larger role, even if they don't want to. And part of it has to do with the polarization of America and the polarization of our legislative branch, and our inability to have professional civil discourse. Like, you know, we're just- there's so much anger and there's so much vitriol and there's so much we versus them that I think, increasingly, human beings are looking to the corporations to maybe be something that they didn't want to be. 00;57;29;29 - 00;57;57;24 Jim Fielding Right? But I think our societal structures and our governmental structures are so challenged right now that people are looking to their organizations to have a voice and to make a difference. And again, I think, I think it's a competitive thing. I think if you're not creating that environment, you're not going to be able to recruit and train and retain the right level of talent. 00;57;57;26 - 00;58;19;03 Jim Fielding They'll go somewhere else. They'll take it somewhere else, particularly the younger generations. And, you know, again, back to our Midwestern roots, I mean, there was a time where I thought I was going to work at the same company for 35 years. And, you know, the goal was: work at the same job for 35 years; get a watch, retire, and have a pension, like you remember. 00;58;19;04 - 00;58;22;03 Jim Fielding I mean, that was, that was the Midwestern dream. 00;58;22;03 - 00;58;23;15 Jim Fielding It was like, 00;58;23;18 - 00;58;39;19 Jim Fielding I worked my way up. I, you know, I worked there for 35 years. I had, you know, decent pay, good benefits. And then I was going to get a lovely retirement party, and I was going to have a pension, and I was going to, you know, and for those of us in Toledo, I was going to move to Florida. 00;58;39;26 - 00;58;40;02 Jim Fielding Right? Like that was... 00;58;40;04 - 00;58;42;20 J.R. Jamison Jamison: [Laughing] Snowbirding. 00;58;42;24 - 00;58;43;12 Jim Fielding Fielding: You know what I mean? Snowbirding. 00;58;43;13 - 00;58;44;06 Jim Fielding Right? I was either 00;58;44;06 - 00;59;07;29 Jim Fielding going to live in Florida full time or part of the year because I was getting older and it was too cold in Toledo, right? That was the American dream, the Midwestern Toledo dream. And I think increasingly, again, to attract young talent and retain young talent. If you don't take a stand- And I think we really saw it even before queer rights, we really saw it in women's rights, 00;59;08;00 - 00;59;31;18 Jim Fielding J.R., like, I think the overturning of Roe vs. Wade put a ton of pressure on corporations, and in many cases, they have stepped up. If you think about corporations that are offering benefits to women to provide medical assistance, even if that meant traveling out of state, if their state was not a friendly state for women's rights, that's a corporation standing up. 00;59;31;20 - 01;00;00;10 Jim Fielding That's a corporation saying, “I believe in the rights of women to control their own body and to have choice.” And there's many corporations that have that benefit now. That, to me, I don't think five years ago any corporate CEO or human resources officer would be like, oh, we're going to have to come up with a women's health plan, because I don't think five years ago any of us believe that Roe vs. Wade could be overturned. 01;00;00;13 - 01;00;21;12 Jim Fielding And, and so I think it's hard to be in the C-suite right now. I think it's hard to be a leader because things happen, again, control the controllable, one of the things that was out of your control. We can't control the Supreme Court, but when it happened, then you have to pull your team together and say, “How are we going to respond? 01;00;21;15 - 01;00;35;06 Jim Fielding How are we going to respond? How are we going to protect the rights of the women employees who work for us?” And I've seen a number of corporations step up to protect. 01;00;35;08 - 01;00;54;02 J.R. Jamison Jamison: One of my favorite chapters of the book, you talk about being selfish not being a bad word. And I think, I think that stuck out to me because as I get older and I'm going through my career, I'm becoming more selfish, but just in how I spend my time, right? I think about this all the time, and then I feel guilty. 01;00;54;02 - 01;01;04;27 J.R. Jamison It's that Midwestern that's in me, right? Like I start to feel guilty about it. Why is that important? Why is being selfish so important to those with marginalized identities? 01;01;05;00 - 01;01;24;22 Jim Fielding Fielding: Well, it, it took me, I mean, this is a learning in my 50s again. Like, I wish Jim, you know, in his 20s understood this. Similar to you, I can tell by your reaction, you know, I was raised that selfish was a bad word, and selfish meant I wasn't sharing with my sister. I wasn't sharing food, or I wasn't sharing toys or a book or whatever. 01;01;24;22 - 01;01;50;13 Jim Fielding And I would get a time out, like, you know, little Jimmy sat in the corner a lot, like on a stool, staring at the corner. Right? Maybe it was only 15 minutes, but it felt like hours to me. Right? Like it felt like work. And so I just grew up like, selfish is bad, selfish is bad. And I finally, through work with my own therapist and my executive coach, I started to think of selfish as self-care. 01;01;50;15 - 01;02;20;10 Jim Fielding And what I learned was, for me to be the best leader and best person that I could be, I had to make sure that mentally, emotionally, spiritually, physically, I was taking care of myself. I was recharging my batteries. I was- Because what I would tend to do is run, run, run. My batteries would run down, and then I would get sick, like, and I'd be out for 2 or 3 days where I would just be laying in bed with like a head cold or flu-like symptoms, like my body almost would be like, okay, you're giving too much. 01;02;20;13 - 01;02;39;08 Jim Fielding And what I learned is I had to temper that more. I had to run not at 100% all the time. I had to run at kind of like 80 and then recharge the battery. It's funny, I have an electric car now. I got an electric vehicle, 100% electric vehicle like four months ago. And it's funny because I watched the battery in there, and I'm like, oh, cool, we're getting down to 50%. 01;02;39;08 - 01;02;41;19 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Time to recharge. 01;02;41;22 - 01;03;05;23 Jim Fielding Fielding: I gotta charge, right? And it's almost that's what I think of when I wrote that chapter physically, is that I can physically feel when my battery is running down and that- and it changes as you get older. To your point too, J.R., like we, you know, we don't have- even though I try to eat right and exercise and do all that stuff, we don't have the same energy level that we had 15 years ago. 01;03;05;25 - 01;03;31;04 Jim Fielding And I need more sleep, for example. And so I think in order to be the best version- and not just the best boss, but just a better person, a better partner, a better brother, a better son, a better friend. You need to take care of yourself. It's I- you know what, it struck me, I think I wrote about in the book, but, is when you're on an airplane and they say if that oxygen mask falls down, put yours on before you help anyone else, 01;03;31;11 - 01;03;39;16 Jim Fielding help anyone else. It's the same thought behind that, right? If you don't take care of yourself, you're not going to be good taking care of anyone else. 01;03;39;18 - 01;03;57;19 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Your lessons and advice that you share in your book - I mean of course you're writing it from a perspective of being a queer man - but really these lessons span beyond how one identifies. What have you heard from folks who've read the book and don't share your same identities? 01;03;57;21 - 01;03;58;07 Jim Fielding Fielding: Yeah. 01;03;58;08 - 01;04;28;22 Jim Fielding No, I think that's one of the most pleasant surprises is, you know, I've had both people in my life who have popped up again and people I don't know of all different ages and identities, including some amazing 50 year old, cisgender, heterosexual white men who have said, “I really appreciate this book and the leadership lessons in it, and I'm at a point in my life, you know, my kids are going off to school. 01;04;28;24 - 01;04;34;02 Jim Fielding My parents are aging.” Like, you know, like it's funny that chapter nine. Like. 01;04;34;04 - 01;04;58;12 Jim Fielding “Selfish is not a bad word” comes up a lot. The other learning that comes up a lot is “don't let anyone dim your light.” And that I really thought that was from a very marginalized queer person's perspective. But what I've learned being out on this tour is many people have felt at times as an other or felt that they weren't being listened to, or they weren't being respected, or their points of view didn't matter. 01;04;58;14 - 01;05;10;24 Jim Fielding And I think that's been probably the most pleasant surprise. And when you read the ten leadership lessons, like they don't- like the first one, “control the controllable but leave space for the possible.” It doesn't say “and be gay” at the end of it, right? 01;05;10;25 - 01;05;13;12 Jim Fielding Like it's completely, that 01;05;13;13 - 01;05;42;21 Jim Fielding learning is applicable to all human beings of any background, of any sexuality, race, gender. And I was very conscious when I went back and looked at the learnings, especially the chapter titled Learning Titles, to make sure that they weren't only for queer white men or gay men. And I do think that they’re life lessons for anybody. 01;05;42;22 - 01;05;43;26 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Yeah. 01;05;43;28 - 01;06;00;14 J.R. Jamison Lastly, I want to talk a bit about empathy, which we've touched on some, but the work that we do here at the Facing Project is steeped in trying to create a more understanding and empathetic world. I'm asking all of my guests this season a question that I would love your perspective on. 01;06;00;15 - 01;06;00;27 Jim Fielding Fielding: Yes. 01;06;00;27 - 01;06;11;05 J.R. Jamison Jamison: How do we create a more empathetic world in a time when it feels like listening and understanding the lives of others has actually decreased? 01;06;11;08 - 01;06;11;22 Jim Fielding Fielding: Yeah. 01;06;11;22 - 01;06;31;21 Jim Fielding I think it goes back to the quote I shared earlier is maybe, “Leave our corner of the world a little better than we found it.” I think in the face of this, we have to work more. And it's incredible, J.R., that you provide a platform for people like me like this. We have to take advantage of every opportunity that's handed to us to share our stories and be authentic. 01;06;31;21 - 01;06;57;25 Jim Fielding And, you know, the last learning in the book is “authentic kindness is more important than being first or being right.” And that really to me, that learning came from a reflection of these times is, I think that we just have to be kinder to each other again. There was a time - you lived it, I lived it - where you could disagree politically and socially, and you were not denigrating each other. 01;06;57;27 - 01;07;23;22 Jim Fielding You were not did not dissolve into outright arguments and fights. And I, I worry for our younger people who look at our government and look at our society and see our structures where it's just anger and, you know, I- The whole Speaker of the House situation we've had this year, right? Like we've never lived through anything like that in our life. 01;07;23;22 - 01;07;40;19 Jim Fielding And I worry about young people who are like, “That's how government functions?” And all I want to say is, “No, that's not how government functions.” And, and I grew up in the household- And in my own life, there's times I voted Democratic, there's times I voted Republican. Obviously I’m more Democratic leaning for all the reasons that are so obvious. 01;07;40;19 - 01;08;08;19 Jim Fielding But, but that doesn't mean I've never voted for a Republican in my whole life. And we used to vote for the person. We didn't used to vote for the party. We used to vote for what the person stood for and believed in. And, and there were centrist Democrats. There were centrist Republicans at one time. And I, I love that you asked all of your listeners and guests this question, because I feel like we just have to get back to just lead with kindness. 01;08;08;20 - 01;08;34;24 Jim Fielding Like think about kindness first, not just being right. You're allowed your opinion. I believe in the First Amendment, freedom of speech and all that kind of stuff. But like, do it in a kinder way because we're not right now. And, and I think there's examples of the lack of kindness all around the world that are, should be very cautionary tales for everybody. 01;08;34;27 - 01;08;42;07 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Jim Fielding, author of “All Pride, No Ego,” an educator and business executive, thank you so much for joining me on The Facing Project. 01;08;42;10 - 01;08;45;07 Jim Fielding Fielding: Oh my gosh, thank you so much for having me. It's such an honor. 01;08;45;09 - 01;08;56;01 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Absolutely. More about Jim Fielding and his book, “All Pride, No Ego,” at AllPrideNoEgo.com. [Theme music] 01;08;56;03 - 01;09;19;09 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Many thanks once again to Jim Fielding for joining me on today's show. To listen to past episodes of this program, visit IndianaPublicRadio.org/TheFacingProject, or find us on your favorite podcasting app, or just ask your smart speaker to play The Facing Project on NPR. To continue the conversation about this episode, find us on Facebook, Instagram, and X at The Facing Project. 01;09;19;10 - 01;09;41;28 J.R. Jamison The Facing Project is recorded at Indiana Public Radio at Ball State University in beautiful and wonderful Muncie, Indiana, and is produced by the amazing producer and audio engineer extraordinaire, Sean Ashcraft. The show is distributed nationally through PRX. I'm your host, J.R. Jamison. And until next time, I wish you the courage to share your own story and the empathy to listen to others. [Theme music fades]