00;00;04;04 - 00;00;25;28 John Noltner Noltner: Which is to say, we gotta practice. We've got to exercise those muscles. If you want to be good at free throws, shoot 10,000 free throws. If you want to be good at conversations around division, you gotta have a bunch of conversations around division. And when when those muscles are weak. And I really think collectively they are weak. 00;00;26;01 - 00;00;32;17 John Noltner And I think we just have to practice those conversations. 00;00;32;20 - 00;01;03;00 J.R. Jamison Jamison: I'm J.R. Jamison. Today on the Facing Project, I sit down with award winning photographer, author, and peace activist John Noltner to talk about photography as a form of storytelling that explores the common humanity that unites us. And we discuss his latest book, Lessons on the Road to Peace, that covers his 45,000 mile journey across the US. Stay with us. [Theme music] 00;01;03;02 - 00;01;38;19 J.R. Jamison Jamison: This season, I'm doing something a little different to mix up our format. I’ll still share stories from past Facing Projects to shine a light on specific topics and issues. But also, I'll sit down for long form interviews with business executives, bestselling authors, filmmakers, and other artists who are using their platforms to make the world a more understanding and empathetic place, asking each of them the same question: How do we create a more empathetic world in a time when listening has decreased and each person's message is competing with millions of others? 00;01;38;21 - 00;02;11;22 J.R. Jamison Today's guest is John Noltner, an award winning photographer, author, and peace activist who has spent the past 15 years collecting photos and narratives from around the world while asking each participant a few guiding questions, such as: What does peace mean to you? And what gives you hope? These photos and narratives lead to displays in communities where people can literally see how they and their neighbors answered, often transpiring into deeper discussions around commonalities rather than differences. 00;02;11;24 - 00;02;33;20 J.R. Jamison In 2020, John and his wife Karen sold their home and took off in a travel trailer, and eventually only a van, to dedicate more time and energy to collect these narratives, that has led to John's latest book, Lessons on the Road to Peace. John Noltner, award winning photographer, author and founder of A Peace of My Mind, thank you for joining me on The Facing Project. 00;02;33;20 - 00;02;34;27 John Noltner Noltner: Thanks for having me, J.R.. 00;02;35;04 - 00;02;48;05 J.R. Jamison Jamison: At heart, you're a storyteller and the work you now do is multi-media, but the basis is photography. What is it about photography that tells a deeper story? Take me back to your roots. 00;02;48;07 - 00;03;34;24 John Noltner Noltner: So my degree was in journalism in storytelling. But my storytelling has often happened visually. And I spent, I spent 20 years as a freelance photographer, shooting for national magazines and fortune 500 companies and, man, I am just in love with the still image. You know, there's something about a still image that captures a moment and allows you to study it and reflect on it in a way that we don't get to do in our day to day lives in, in a way that's inappropriate to do in our day to day lives, sometimes, to really be able to look and study this moment. 00;03;34;27 - 00;03;50;20 John Noltner You know, our world is fleeting and our input, is constantly coming at us from every direction. But to capture that moment in a still photograph is, is a process that I've been in love with for all of my life. 00;03;50;22 - 00;04;13;13 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Do you find when you, I mean, the work that you do now is is a little different, I mean, still based on photography. And we'll talk a little more about that here in a moment. But do you find when you take photographs not related to the work that you do with A Peace of, of My Mind, do you find that you're telling a story in your head as you take these photos? 00;04;13;16 - 00;04;43;24 John Noltner Noltner: [laughter] Yeah, all the time. It's, the camera is an extension of me, and it's also my excuse to explore the world. Yeah, maybe not excuse, but it's my, it's my process for exploring the world. And so when I'm taking pictures, it's helping me to look at things more closely. And it's helping me to notice subtle nuances in light and composition and the interaction between people. 00;04;43;24 - 00;05;12;19 John Noltner And it is, it's an inactive observer status. And so it's, it's a nonstop running commentary. And my wife Karen will joke sometimes if we're going out on a hike, together and I'm debating whether I should bring my camera or not, she's like, “Oh, please bring my bring your camera because you'll be agonizing at the lack of process if you don't get it.” 00;05;12;22 - 00;05;17;18 John Noltner So, yeah, it has become an extension of who I am. 00;05;17;20 - 00;05;44;28 J.R. Jamison Jamison: What was it about that reflective process of doing your own photography as an independent photographer? Right? And also doing your own photography as a person with your family and kind of reflecting on these own stories as you're capturing these, these stills, right? What was it about that process that led you to say, “Ah, there's something here,” which then became A Peace of My Mind? 00;05;45;00 - 00;06;24;12 John Noltner Noltner: Oh, yeah, that's a great question. I, as a as an assignment photographer, the routine is that somebody approaches you and offers you money to to photograph the assignment that they're interested in. And I felt like, well, and I love that process because I got to go to photograph a spa in Chicago and a rainforest research station in Costa Rica and, you know, pediatric hospitals to tell the stories of doctors and just this fascinating, wonderful stuff. 00;06;24;14 - 00;06;47;26 John Noltner But I felt like I was responding to somebody else's request all the time waiting for that call to come in, which would then trigger action. In that process, I came to see sort of that beauty and wisdom that's all around us, wherever I was photographing people, and I started to realize that I had something I wanted to say about the world, too. 00;06;47;28 - 00;07;11;13 John Noltner It wasn't just about responding to what somebody else wanted to say and and fulfilling an assignment and capturing those images, but to be able to sort of offer my vision to the world and bring that bigger view. That, that really planted the seed and the desire for me to do a long term project of my own. 00;07;11;15 - 00;07;37;13 J.R. Jamison Jamison: In the early days of your work, when you started A Peace of My Mind back in 2009, correct? In those early days you would ask participants a question, and that was, “What does peace mean to you?” Which seems like such a simple question. But that simple question is really deep. And on your site, I mean, if folks go and they read through these narratives, they're they're deep, these quotes. 00;07;37;13 - 00;07;43;22 J.R. Jamison So turning the tables a bit. What does peace mean to you? 00;07;43;24 - 00;08;11;18 John Noltner Yeah. For me peace is a collective pursuit. I mean, we can talk about the notion of negative peace, which is the absence of war and the absence of violence and, and the absence of oppression. And in a certain sense, that's, that's like the lowest bar, right? That we got to at least get there. But I'm also fascinated by this notion of positive peace. 00;08;11;21 - 00;08;38;18 John Noltner Which is to create the environment where all people can thrive, where people have the opportunity to have meaning and purpose and connection in their lives. And for me, that that sense of peace, I mean, this is almost rooted in Doctor King's notion of beloved community, right? Those people around you who who you're connected to, whether you see it on a day to day basis or not. 00;08;38;20 - 00;09;09;11 John Noltner And, and and so for me, this sense of peace is not just a personal pursuit. Right? I'm not.... If all of my needs are taken care of, that brings me a certain level of peace. But it's not until all those people around me also have that level of needs being met and opportunities available, that, that I really achieve sort of my collective sense of peace. 00;09;09;14 - 00;09;34;23 J.R. Jamison Jamison: I love that idea. You know, when I think of peace myself, I've- And this seems really selfish, I guess, but I've never really thought about those around me. I guess maybe I have, like, when I think about peace, it's the first part of, of, of your response, where it's more of, if people can live authentically. But I love how simple that question is, but it makes people think, and I imagine that every response is different. 00;09;35;01 - 00;10;04;27 John Noltner Noltner: Well, when I started this project, I thought I'd maybe do a couple dozen interviews and then we would run out of things to say. [Laughs] We would have exhausted the conversation. But in fact, I've done hundreds of these interviews now, and, and people always bring new experience and new new personal insights into these conversations based on how they've traveled through life and who they've encountered and the situations in front of them. 00;10;05;00 - 00;10;40;23 John Noltner You know, I've, I've come to call that question, “What is peace mean to you?” I've come to call that my gateway question. Because it really just opens an opportunity for people to talk about what's on their hearts, to really dig deep and share mission, vision and values in the, in the world. And I mean, I've, I've, I've met people from all different backgrounds and I, I have yet to meet somebody who wouldn't welcome a little bit more peace into their lives, whether it's they, you know, their immediate family or their their neighborhood or the bigger world. 00;10;40;25 - 00;11;01;26 John Noltner You know, even my friends who serve in the US military, I think would prefer to stay home with their families when they could. So so it's this great equalizer in this incredibly polarized world that we live in. It is an opportunity to find common ground and start the conversation there so that people can can share what's on their hearts. 00;11;01;28 - 00;11;25;04 J.R. Jamison Jamison: And we call this bridge building. You and I both work in bridge building movements and some folks are like, “What is bridge building?” But the work that we do really is bringing people together in unexpected ways that maybe don't always agree or have different opinions about the world. But that very simple question brings people together. You've traveled all over the world. 00;11;25;07 - 00;11;33;10 J.R. Jamison You've been to communities both large and small. What themes are you seeing from these dialogs? 00;11;33;12 - 00;11;56;15 John Noltner Noltner: All right. I'm going to answer that question in just a minute. But first I'm going to share. [Laughs] You said the word bridge building and I just want to- There's a funny story. My last book came out. This is the way Amazon and the algorithms work, right? And I entered in the keywords “bridge building,” and then I also entered into the keywords, “photography,” and some other things. 00;11;56;15 - 00;12;03;24 John Noltner And when Amazon, when my book went for sale, I was listed as number one in “photography of bridges.” 00;12;03;25 - 00;12;05;23 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Oh, no! [Laughter] 00;12;05;26 - 00;12;09;25 John Noltner I'm like, that's not the category I belong in! [Laughing continues] 00;12;09;28 - 00;12;18;11 J.R. Jamison Jamison: But just think about all the people who maybe found your book that way, who love actual bridges and maybe it opened their mind in different ways, right? 00;12;18;14 - 00;12;56;15 John Noltner Noltner: All three of them, in fact! [Laughter] So, this is the world we live in. But, yeah, you asked about some of the themes that I'm seeing, and, you know, everywhere that I go, I see a desire for people to feel seen and heard and valued. You know, there are so many instances in our lives where that doesn't happen, where we don't feel affirmed, where we don't feel recognized, where we don't feel like our authentic selves are are honored. 00;12;56;15 - 00;13;23;00 John Noltner And there's there's all sorts of negative stuff that ripples out from that struggle. And when that is present, it's remarkable to me how well people can navigate all of these other hurdles and struggles in the world, that, if we just have a sense of of being seen and heard and valued, a whole bunch of good stuff can ripple out from that. 00;13;23;02 - 00;13;56;26 John Noltner What another thing I see is this this deep desire for connection, you know, and I think especially during the, the pandemic, we we lost a lot of our natural connections. And I worry sometimes that we've settled into a newer, lower expectation for what those connections can be. And part of what I hope A Peace of My Mind can do is to help communities and individuals re-learn some of those processes of connection, re-invigorate some of those muscles and exercise 00;13;56;26 - 00;14;32;05 John Noltner them so that we can build those skills. I hope if anything out of the pandemic, we can hold on to the thoughts that we are all a little bit more connected than we ever understood, and that we're all more deeply vulnerable than we ever really recognized. You know, if we could hold those two things in our interactions as we go through communal life, it just feels like we could make more space and grace for one another. 00;14;32;08 - 00;14;53;21 J.R. Jamison Jamison: We are living during a time where it seems like we're the most divided we've been in quite some time. I think, I argue, sometimes social media obviously plays a big part of that, because the algorithms, as you were talking about, it puts us into different categories, right? We're lumped into silos at times. So we don't often see other point of views. 00;14;53;23 - 00;15;11;27 J.R. Jamison And when we do see those other point of views, we're so used to being in our own camp that it almost becomes like fight or flight in many ways. In your opinion, what do you think is holding people back from making these connections across divides? 00;15;11;29 - 00;15;44;24 John Noltner Noltner: I think that we're afraid of doing it wrong. I think so often it's been modeled for us that if you launch into these difficult spaces that you will encounter pain, and then you'll, you'll encounter some sort of, you know, negative reaction. And I think people are concerned about that. I think that there's a lot of pride that gets in the way of being vulnerable. 00;15;44;26 - 00;16;09;03 John Noltner You know, confirmation bias tells us that we will look for all of the evidence that proves that we're right, and we will work overtime to ignore anything that refutes our position. And there's a lot of pride that's, that's mixed up into that. I think that we, I mean, life is full and life is busy and we we've got to sort of keep moving forward in some way. 00;16;09;06 - 00;16;33;28 John Noltner And I think we develop these these methodologies where we try to hold, we try to push back on anything that's going to make us uncomfortable or anything that's going to make us vulnerable or anything that's going to make us, you know, have to have to struggle a little bit more in a different way. And I think, in that process, we believe that we're protecting ourselves. 00;16;34;04 - 00;17;02;19 John Noltner But in fact, I believe that in that process, we're insulating ourselves from the very best of what human engagement and experience and connection can be. And so I think it needs to be a willful choice to reach across those divides. It needs to be an intentional act to not launch into the most contentious issue with this person we just met. 00;17;02;22 - 00;17;29;09 John Noltner But to first do the hard work of building a foundation on building a little bit of connection. You know, I think so often we just jump right into the fire and somehow we're surprised that we get burned. But we, we need to be willing to do that work. To build the relationship to to sustain the engagement if it's going to turn into anything productive. 00;17;29;11 - 00;18;05;26 J.R. Jamison Jamison: As you've been in these communities helping to tell these stories with your guiding questions, have you seen anyone be surprised in the moment when there's the grand debut of their own stories in their communities? You do these really wonderful displays. Do you have any stories around how folks have reacted to their own stories, seeing them, and how they have reacted to maybe others in their community who they don't have a relationship with, or not a strong relationship, but they see that they've gone through that process too. 00;18;05;27 - 00;18;09;18 J.R. Jamison Have you have you seen anything like that happen? 00;18;09;21 - 00;18;38;28 John Noltner Noltner: Oh yeah, all the time. And it's what sustains me on the days when I get really tired from from showing up and doing this work. But let me, let me just give you a little background for the listeners. So we'll very often come into a community, a college, a conference, a faith community, and we'll set up a studio and we will ask a question that we've sort of determined collaboratively. 00;18;39;01 - 00;18;57;10 John Noltner It's questions like, “When have you found unexpected courage? When have you bridge the divide? When have you felt a sense of belonging?” You know, questions like this, that again, let people talk about mission, vision and values. And people will write a response in 25 words or less. 00;18;57;12 - 00;19;21;21 John Noltner We'll do a black and white portrait and we combine their picture and their words. And so the goal is to create this whole body of work of the community talking about this issue. And then at the end of it we have some sort of public event. And we share the stories back. So that may mean I do a keynote lecture, and we have a little six minute video that includes some of their stories. 00;19;21;23 - 00;19;50;14 John Noltner It may mean that we print them out and we host them in a physical display. Last month in New York Mills, Minnesota, a little rural community, they had this great set of grain elevators right on Main Street, and we actually projected 178 of their local stories on the side of the grain elevator. And when that happens, people start to see themselves and their peers in new ways. 00;19;50;16 - 00;20;16;16 John Noltner You know, they start to get this, this different sense of who the people are around them because they'll look at stories and they'll go, “Oh, I didn't know they went through that. I didn't know they lost their parent like I just did. I didn't know they struggled with these feelings of this.” Because I don't I don't know what the magic of this is actually, other than people feeling seen and heard and valued. 00;20;16;19 - 00;20;40;25 John Noltner But when you create a space to listen like this, people will share some really powerful stuff. And and so really vulnerable stuff. And I'll just share one, one example with you of when I've seen this play out, there are, there are anecdotes day in and day out, like I said, that sustain me. But I was at a retreat center in Washington state up in the Cascades. 00;20;40;25 - 00;20;57;03 John Noltner It's called Holden Village, and I showed up. This was the second year I had done this. And a woman who I didn't know I had seen her before, but I didn't really know her, came up and said, “Boy, last year I was intimidated to do your thing, but by God, I'm going to do it this year.” I'm like, “Okay, great. 00;20;57;05 - 00;21;26;03 John Noltner I'll look forward to it.” And she, our question there was, “When have you found unexpected courage?” And she replied by saying, “Sometimes getting out of bed in the morning requires courage. I do life solo.” She said, “I don't do life alone. I do life solo.” And, and then we shared this. We projected them for this community of 300 people and afterwards, this woman's name was Deb. 00;21;26;06 - 00;21;51;12 John Noltner The next day in the, in the dining hall, Deb found me and she said, “I want to talk to you.” And I thought, oh, no. You know, now she's self-conscious or she's she's sorry that she participated in this thing, but she said she said, “After you projected that image,” she said, “there were a dozen people that came up to me afterwards and said, ‘That's me too,’” right? 00;21;51;12 - 00;22;08;01 John Noltner Or, “’I've been married for 40 years, and now my spouse has got a terminal diagnosis. How am I going to work through this? What can you what can you share with me?’” And she said it opened so many conversations that would have never existed had she kept that inside. 00;22;08;04 - 00;22;39;02 John Noltner And that that to me is a perfect example of the reason why we have to crack open a little bit and we have to share some of these hard things because we don't find ridicule or scorn or isolation when we share those vulnerable selves, parts of ourselves, what we find is outreach and warmth and connection. And I think we we need to practice that in order to convince ourselves that it's going to be okay. 00;22;39;04 - 00;23;06;10 J.R. Jamison Jamison: I find in my own work too, that some of these people are afraid to tell their story and they need an outlet to do it, like the work they that you're doing and that projection. And then seeing herself projected on the screen in the community in that way was kind of a self reflection for her. But like you said, others came out to say, I'm I'm kind of lonely too, or I'm doing life solo or my life's changing. 00;23;06;13 - 00;23;25;21 J.R. Jamison And just think about the sub-community that creates now around her. Have you heard from past participants? I'm thinking, you know, those who took part years ago. Have you heard how this process shifted their viewpoints and/or how they have chosen to interact with others years later? 00;23;25;23 - 00;23;52;26 John Noltner Noltner: Yeah, I just had lunch earlier this week with a man named Zafar Siddiqui, who I interviewed in the first year of my project. And we've continued to stay in touch. And, you know, I hear often from people that that they've never had the opportunity to articulate these sort of ideas before, that it was the first time that they actually sat down to have a conversation quite like this. 00;23;52;29 - 00;24;16;06 John Noltner You know, and our our conversations are far ranging, like yours, we do an hour long recorded oral history. And, you know, we ask, “What does peace mean to you? How do you work towards it in your life? What are some of the obstacles you encounter along the way?” But then, like you, I like to go down the rabbit holes. So someone will drop a little hint and I'm like, ooh, let's talk about that some more. 00;24;16;11 - 00;24;43;21 John Noltner Or what do you mean by that? And and so people wind up going down these paths in their conversations that are a little bit cathartic, a little bit clarifying, for me. Sometimes I, you know, “What does peace mean to you?” That can be sort of a squishy question. And I kind of think I know what I mean by that, but it's only when I have to articulate it out loud that my thoughts take some concrete shape. 00;24;43;21 - 00;25;21;17 John Noltner And even then, when I say it out loud, sometimes I go, ah, no, that's not quite right. That's not what I mean. And then I have to turn it and look at it again. And so I hear from people all the time that they, they experience that sort of thing in the process. What I also hear a lot of times is people- When, when I go into communities, I was just out in, in Corvallis, Oregon, and we worked with a coalition of campus and community organizations that came together to sponsor this and to make it effective and to to invite people to participate. 00;25;21;20 - 00;26;02;14 John Noltner And what I heard when I was there is, oh, we never really worked with this group before or that group before, but now that we're talking, we see all sorts of common ground and we see all sorts of opportunities for working together in the future, some synergy and some common ground. And and so this connection happens on the personal level, where people get to articulate some of their deepest held beliefs, but it also happens in the communal level where we're seeding and incubating collaborations that can hopefully, they, you know, outlast my presence in a particular community. 00;26;02;16 - 00;26;24;20 J.R. Jamison Jamison: As someone who also collects narratives, I believe to my core that everyone has a story to tell. And I know you believe that too, but some stories stay with me longer than others and have left an impact on me in ways that I never imagined or shifted my own belief system, or, you know, my own thought process around an issue or a topic. 00;26;24;23 - 00;26;43;25 J.R. Jamison I'm thinking in particular, I was working with a group of folks in Atlanta, Georgia, and there was a story about a man who's now an adult. But when he was 15, he was kicked out of his house and he was sold into sexual slavery. I mean, he basically became part of the sex industry, and that was a survival mechanism. 00;26;44;02 - 00;27;12;17 J.R. Jamison And then I think about another story that we collected in Dayton, and from a bouncer who survived a mass shooting, and how he recalled seeing the shooter who had been killed by the police, and seeing him there and having so much anger at him, but also realizing in that moment that he was someone's kid and that he had died, and that there were parents who likely loved him and were going through a different kind of mourning process. 00;27;12;19 - 00;27;34;12 J.R. Jamison And we never think about those things. And I'm not giving, right? Like, I'm not, apologizing for anybody who was doing like a mass shooting or anything like that. But it changed my thinking about stories and how they impact us in these different ways. But these stories can be heavy, right? Those kinds of stories are heavy. They're hard to hear, but they're important to be told and shared. 00;27;34;12 - 00;27;43;21 J.R. Jamison So I'm interested to know, do you have any particular stories that have stayed with you and impacted you in different ways? Tell me more about that. 00;27;43;24 - 00;27;55;22 John Noltner Noltner: Yeah. There are so many. But like you, there are a few that just sort of stick and and and one of them is a man named Lee Bennett. 00;27;55;24 - 00;28;26;23 John Noltner In Charleston. And, this was in the last couple of years as we were on the road full time. We were in Charleston, and I really wanted to talk about some of the historic ramifications of slavery and how race was impacting our world. And you, you remember, I'm sure, the story from 2015 where a white supremacist walked into a Bible study in Mother Emanuel church, 00;28;26;23 - 00;28;44;15 John Noltner all Black church, and asked to be invited into the Bible study. And he was invited in, and he sat with the people for, for an hour talking about the word of God. And at the end, when everybody bowed their heads to pray, he pulled out a gun and he shot and killed nine people. 00;28;44;17 - 00;28;57;25 John Noltner And when, when I was waiting for- So Lee was going to meet me at the church so we could do the interview when I was- I show up chronically early. It's just- [Laughter] I don't know how that happened. 00;28;57;26 - 00;28;59;14 J.R. Jamison Jamison: There's nothing wrong with that. 00;28;59;17 - 00;29;16;24 John Noltner Noltner: Yeah. Yeah. So. So I was waiting a couple of minutes for Lee to show up at the, at the normal time, like normal people do. But I was standing on the steps of the church: this middle aged white guy with bags of gear asking to be trusted and allowed into that space. 00;29;16;25 - 00;29;17;22 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Mhmm. 00;29;17;25 - 00;29;41;21 John Noltner Noltner: You know, just six years after this, yeah, horrific thing happened. And again, this wasn't a question that I led with because it was important that we spent some time sort of building relationship and, and, and feeling each other out in the conversation. But at a certain point, I said, “Lee, how is it that a,” - Lee's a black guy - 00;29;41;23 - 00;29;53;18 John Noltner and I said, “How is it that a person who looks like you can come to trust a person who looks like me after having that trust violated in such a horrific way?” 00;29;53;21 - 00;30;15;10 John Noltner And he said, “Well that's easy John.” He said, “This isn't our house, this is the Lord's house. And we are here to serve and to welcome and to love everybody who walks through the door.” And he said, “We can't allow the horrific actions of one human being to change who we are inside.” 00;30;15;17 - 00;30;15;26 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Wow. 00;30;15;29 - 00;30;44;00 John Noltner Noltner: You know, and wherever you fall on the faith spectrum, whatever you believe in, that world is immaterial. But the the, the notion that that sort of grace and welcome and forgiveness could be present in a space where such a horrible thing happened, was really just profoundly moving to me and is a lesson that I try to carry out, 00;30;44;02 - 00;30;46;07 John Noltner you know, as I walk through my days. 00;30;46;10 - 00;31;04;22 J.R. Jamison Jamison: That's an amazing story. And it does take time to build trust when you're asking people to share their narratives with you. And that trust isn't always come easy. In that case, it sounds like you were a little more nervous about maybe building that trust, but he was a little more forgiving around it and was saying, I trust you. 00;31;04;22 - 00;31;19;28 J.R. Jamison Come, come into the space. This is a space that everyone is welcome for us to have these conversations. Have you been in a different kind of space where you're wanting to build that trust, but there's kind of walls that need to be broken down. What does that look like? 00;31;20;00 - 00;31;48;25 John Noltner Noltner: Yeah, I mean that that happens a lot. Look, I'm I'm the poster child of privilege. You know, if we're going to talk about privilege, I’m a middle aged, white, cisgender, married, college educated, you know, blah, blah, blah. And and many of the people who I, who I interviewed don't share that same privilege. And it's really- Well, a couple of things to say about that. 00;31;48;25 - 00;32;23;08 John Noltner It's really important to me that I reduce my filter as much as possible and that I amplify their voice. It's really important to me that when they see the final project, they say, “Yeah, that's what I was trying to say that day. Thanks for thanks for giving me the space to do it.” But it's also really important to realize that there are a lot of communities where a mistrust of somebody who looks like me is a natural byproduct of all of the difficult history that we share in this country. 00;32;23;10 - 00;32;54;02 John Noltner And so that looks different ways, you know, if if I'm working in a, in an indigenous community, I went up and did a series of water of stories about the water protectors who were protesting the line three oil pipeline going under the Mississippi River. I didn't bring out my camera for the first three days, because I was just hanging out at the camp with them and talking and getting to know one another and trying to, trying to share some of my process and hope that it resonated with them. 00;32;54;02 - 00;33;21;19 John Noltner And it did. And but then when you when you have that trust, it becomes really important to honor it and to make sure that you're using these stories fairly and to make sure that you're, you're representing people in the way that they would want to be represented. You know, and I've, I've done stories with veterans who are working on PTSD and suicide prevention, and I'm, I'm not a veteran. 00;33;21;25 - 00;33;57;09 John Noltner I'm this peace guy, right? And so, it takes some time to build that connection to help us understand one another, because I probably have some misconceptions about who they are, and they probably have some misconceptions about who I am. And so if we can have some grace with that process, but continue to show up with integrity and with authenticity and curiosity to hear who they are, that, you know, this is this is a part of the process and it can't it can't be rushed and it can't be faked. 00;33;57;11 - 00;34;05;26 John Noltner You know, it’s, it's rooted in honest human compassion and and and curiosity, a desire to learn more. 00;34;05;28 - 00;34;24;26 J.R. Jamison Jamison: On the other end of that spectrum, have you ever gone into a community to build that trust, and it just never, it just never got there, or they decided through the process that they didn't want to be photographed or share their narratives in that way? Have you experienced that in your years of doing the work? 00;34;24;29 - 00;34;55;14 John Noltner Noltner: Yeah, yeah, maybe not in a in a community per se, but I was I was down along the border, doing stories around immigration. And when I do that, I try to line up interviews with, you know, asylum seekers and activists, but also with ranchers and Border Patrol agents. And we were camped in a in a campground near Bisbee, Arizona. 00;34;55;16 - 00;35;25;02 John Noltner A lot of the people in that campground were people who were construction workers who were working on building the wall. This is in January of 2021. So, the Trump administration was actively building parts of the wall. We happened to be there when Biden took over and his administration stopped construction of the wall. 00;35;25;08 - 00;35;45;09 John Noltner So those people, in particular, there was one man who was camped near us who was from Minnesota. I'm from Minnesota. He saw my license plate. We had started talking, and I explained to him what I did, and, he had just been laid off. He had just moved his family down to Arizona to work construction on the wall. 00;35;45;14 - 00;36;02;10 John Noltner They were living in an RV, and then construction stopped. So he was in a really bad spot. He was trying to figure out how he was going to support his family. And he literally said to me, “I suppose I could go back up to Minnesota and work on that pipeline, but they're probably going to shut that down too.” 00;36;02;13 - 00;36;22;11 John Noltner You know, so he and I probably voted for different people. He and I probably had different understandings of, of you know, political issues. But I said to him, “Here, I'm working on this project, I would really love to have your voice in it. I think it's an important part of the conversation because now you're in a bind for your family. 00;36;22;11 - 00;36;43;14 John Noltner I get that, and I would love to hear more about what this means to you.” But I'm I'm sure he was in such, such a state of concern. He was he was in sort of this moment of economic crisis for his family. He just wanted nothing to do with it. So there are times that I've been rejected. 00;36;43;16 - 00;37;07;15 John Noltner There are times, I mean, people hear a project that has the word “peace” in it, and they make certain assumptions that it's this, you know, left wing hippie wacko thing. I hope that they spend time with my project, that they'll understand that it is rooted in listening to people who have experiences different from mine, that have experiences different from yours. 00;37;07;18 - 00;37;24;25 John Noltner And, but sometimes that initial perception can be hard to get through. And I suspect in his case, there was just too much going on for him to really even be interested in getting over that hurdle right then. 00;37;24;27 - 00;37;45;01 J.R. Jamison Jamison: And those kind of stories, and stories like we talked about earlier that are hard to hear, stay with us, right? As storytellers, we don't just walk away from those experiences and think, oh, here's this great thing I'm going to put up on my website or share out right through books or create community conversations. They stay with us and we remember them years later. 00;37;45;01 - 00;38;00;29 J.R. Jamison And sometimes they can be hard on our own mental health in some ways. What advice do you have for other storytellers on maintaining their own mental health, while collecting and sharing stories that are sometimes hard to hear? 00;38;01;02 - 00;38;46;10 John Noltner Noltner: Yeah, that's a great question. I think if you do this work well, if you do it the way it should be done, you're going to carry some of that weight with you. You know, it does come at a cost. I have a friend, another storyteller. And, and and great journalist, Barry Yeoman. And and Barry said that psychologist used to talk about this notion of second hand trauma, that if you are in the presence of people who have experienced that sort of trauma, that you carry some of that with you, but increasingly they're just calling it trauma, you know, no second hand about it. 00;38;46;10 - 00;39;14;20 John Noltner Then you you experience that the way, not the way. But, you some of that transfers to you. And I think, I think it is okay to have our hearts broken. I think it's okay to encounter weight and to feel that. In fact, in fact, I think that's- when your heart is broken like that, I think those cracks are where the compassion and the light can seep in. 00;39;14;22 - 00;39;43;11 John Noltner But yeah, you need to be a little cautious. You need to also do some self-care. You have to figure out what it is that will sustain you. And for me, it's it's music and it's it's, hiking in the outdoors. And so as we were traveling, gathering these stories, we'd do a bunch of interviews and then take a break and go to some beautiful place. 00;39;43;11 - 00;40;07;10 John Noltner And I would do my editing and do, do sunrise walks, through this gorgeous landscape. But you need to pay attention to yourself and your body and be able to respond and and do that self-care. If you're going to be able to sustain the work. For me, especially as we were on the road, I started feeling a lot of weight. 00;40;07;10 - 00;40;33;05 John Noltner And it, I was- I've always enjoyed beer and wine and and whiskey. I think I was starting to enjoy it a little more than I should. And in fact, the better way to say that is I started to not enjoy it, but still use it as a crutch. And so I decided I needed to stop. You know, so a year and a half ago, I just sort of drew the line and said, “This, 00;40;33;08 - 00;40;58;07 John Noltner this isn't good for me anymore.” My sense of self-care was that I had to quit. And it's, it was the right choice for me. You know, in a world where we can't control a lot of things, that was one of the things I could control. And so in that spirit of self-care, and finding more healthy ways to navigate some of that weight, I set that one aside. 00;40;58;09 - 00;40;58;25 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Congratulations. 00;40;58;27 - 00;41;30;06 John Noltner Noltner: I think it's all- Yeah. Thanks. I appreciate that. And it, you know, it, I thought a few months back, I thought maybe I'll just have a glass of wine, see how that feels. And I'm like, nope. I think this is the better answer for me. I don't need that. So it, I mean, people, people find their own way to, to carry weight, but it's important to pay attention to yourself so that you're, you're taking care of yourself in the process. 00;41;30;09 - 00;41;58;27 J.R. Jamison Jamison: I find for myself too, you talked about hiking and being in nature. I found that I find that to be an outlet for me as well, to clear my mind, but also to discover while I'm out walking just how connected we are with the world, with the universe, with, nature. And those small reminders keep me going and, and help me feel centered. 00;41;58;27 - 00;42;26;00 J.R. Jamison And so I often say to people too, I think even if you don't consider yourself a hiker or a runner or a walker, like do what you can to get outdoors to just clear your mind and be in nature and find that interconnectedness that continues to push us forward to do this work. Because if we're just staying inside all the time, it's that is a whole different impact on our on our mind and our mental health. 00;42;26;02 - 00;42;49;11 John Noltner Noltner: Man, it's easy to get sucked into the screen in this world that we live in. But I love to be outside and feel small, you know, whether that's whether that's, you know, standing next to the sea and some pounding surf or or standing in, in, in the desert, or, we, my wife and I, also have a Christmas tree farm in western Wisconsin. 00;42;49;13 - 00;43;06;21 John Noltner And so just to be out there where there's nothing but big Sky, and an open space, feeling small like that is, is part of recharging. It puts things in a perspective that I sometimes lose in the day to day. 00;43;06;23 - 00;43;31;10 J.R. Jamison Jamison: You've been on the road now for 15 years, but you did have a home in Indianapolis but you gave that up. So in the fall of 2020 I think it was, right? You and your wife sold your house. You took your storytelling method to a different level. You bought a travel trailer and then you began to dedicate more time to the road and finding stories. 00;43;31;12 - 00;43;36;06 J.R. Jamison What have you learned about yourself these past few years on the road? 00;43;36;08 - 00;43;59;02 John Noltner Noltner: Yeah, we set out in the fall of 2020, like you said. Sold our house, bought an RV. We started in a 34ft travel trailer that we pulled with, with a pickup truck. That felt like a significant downsize. But then halfway through the journey, that trailer frame broke and we downsized further into a van who we named Vinnie, Vinnie Van Gogh. 00;43;59;04 - 00;43;59;20 John Noltner Mildly dorky. 00;43;59;25 - 00;44;02;07 J.R. Jamison Jamison: [Laughter] No, that’s fun. 00;44;02;10 - 00;44;30;16 John Noltner Noltner: Somebody said the other day, “That's the appropriate level of dorky.” But, you know, so. So it was this process of letting go of a lot of material things. And I think along the way, we we learned that we can live small. We learned that we loved to be close to nature. You know, you live in a 82 square foot van, and that pushes you outside more. 00;44;30;18 - 00;44;59;13 John Noltner You know, we we became- someone once describe this as, not wanting to be an indoor creature who goes outside sometimes, but to be an outdoor creature who sometimes goes in. And so the van pushed us out. And so we were out in the world more often. So we love to be close to nature, but we also love to be close to the issues of the day, to be in proximity. 00;44;59;13 - 00;45;24;12 John Noltner I mean, our methodology, really, was to go to these pain points in the country to go to the border to talk about immigration; to go to Mississippi to talk about moving Confederate monuments; to go to the mouth of the Mississippi to talk about land loss and environmental issues; and to be in proximity to the issues and the people who are being directly impacted. 00;45;24;14 - 00;45;46;23 John Noltner And when you get that close to things and to people, you, you start to see them in new ways, in, in more complicated ways than what we see presented in, you know, the, the, the nightly news or in the headlines. So I learned those things, and I also learned that I need to stay curious about the world. 00;45;46;29 - 00;46;09;25 John Noltner I learned really, how much I have to learn. And so my, my, my, my model of encountering people was rooted in the belief that I would come away from that conversation learning something more about the world. I didn't enter the conversation to tell them everything I knew about the world. I entered to see if they could expand my view a little bit. 00;46;09;26 - 00;46;38;07 John Noltner And when you approach the world that way with curiosity and a willingness to listen and the patience to keep showing up, it, it it's a whole different approach. And I learned that it's, you know, it's an approach that works for me. I, I I've always known this as a photographer, but this convinced me even more that there's beauty and wisdom 00;46;38;09 - 00;46;56;02 John Noltner that's that's all around us if we take the time to see it. And if we take the time to hear it. You know, you could turn on the news and believe that we're falling apart at the seams. But I'll tell you that everywhere we went, we met kind people and generous people who took good care of us and opened up to us. 00;46;56;04 - 00;47;04;06 John Noltner And, man, for me, to turn off that TV and just go out into the world, is a win. 00;47;04;09 - 00;47;19;25 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Yeah. This might be kind of a personal question, and if you don't want to answer it, you don't have to. But how did you, how did your wife respond when you said, “Let's hit the road, let's sell our house and let's hit the road?” Or was it a mutual decision, or, 00;47;19;27 - 00;47;23;12 J.R. Jamison tell, yeah, tell a little bit about that process. How did that work? 00;47;23;14 - 00;47;26;02 John Noltner Noltner: [Laughs] I will begin by saying it was Karen's idea. 00;47;26;04 - 00;47;27;27 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Oh, wow. That's awesome. 00;47;27;27 - 00;47;51;09 John Noltner Noltner: Yeah. People think that I, I forced Karen to do that, [laughter] but in fact, it only took me a moment to say yes when she suggested it. But, so for A Peace of My Mind with my exhibits and my programing and my lectures, you know, I was traveling a lot. Our kids were grown. 00;47;51;11 - 00;48;11;06 John Noltner I think in 2019, before the pandemic, I was on the road 180 days. So really half of the year. And we, I mean, Karen and I like each other. We want, we wanted to spend a little more time together. This was not ideal and not the reason why we got married. And as it turns out, she couldn't quit her job. 00;48;11;08 - 00;48;28;28 John Noltner And then we would buy her own health insurance and we would maintain a home while we went out on the road. We could do two of those things, but we couldn't do all three of those things. And so the house- We were sort of done raising our kids. We weren't in love with mowing the lawn. And so the house was an easy one to let go. 00;48;28;29 - 00;48;53;15 John Noltner It was- We wanted something else in our life anyway. But she said, you know, if I quit my job, we can buy our own health insurance, we can sell the house, and we can be together on the road for this thing. It was also the pandemic. All of my, all of my programing shut down. So we were trying to figure out what to do with that time and realized that I could still do new interviews on the road. 00;48;53;17 - 00;49;15;08 John Noltner So, Karen will tell you it was John and Karen's journey, and it's John's project, so she was not coming along on the interview. She was doing some, some virtual assistant work for, for some other people helping with some marketing. And when I would go do the interviews, she would be doing her work. But then at the end of the day, we'd be able to go explore together. 00;49;15;10 - 00;49;47;24 John Noltner So it was it was a very easy process. We both arrived at the decision together. When the trailer broke, it was Karen's idea to downsize into a van. I was a little skeptical, but she was right again. And after driving 93,000 miles, in 900 days, across the country, one of her biggest concerns is, “What if we decide that this is done at different times? 00;49;47;24 - 00;50;13;11 John Noltner What if one person is sick of this and the other person is still loving it?” But together we sort of, we sort of came to that conclusion at the same time we, we sort of said, “Okay, I think we did this.” Not that we have exhausted every conversation and issue that is around the country. You know, you could sit at the border and never exhaust the human stories around the issue of immigration. 00;50;13;19 - 00;50;28;29 John Noltner But we had felt like we we experienced it and we created a body of work. And it was it was time to come back home and be in community. And we arrived at that one together as well. So I think we were pretty fortunate in that regard. 00;50;29;02 - 00;50;46;07 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Your latest book, Lessons On the Road to Peace, follows those past few years on the road. And it opens with the killing of George Floyd in Minneapolis and the acknowledgment that it happened only 11 miles from your then home. And of course, ultimately you and your wife Karen, selling your home and hitting the road like we just talked about. 00;50;46;10 - 00;50;54;15 J.R. Jamison Take me back to those moments, and how did it shift you- shift how you tell stories and ultimately the curation of the book? 00;50;54;18 - 00;51;36;20 John Noltner Noltner: Yeah, yeah. So, you know, it was the pandemic and we were trying to do what we could do to socially distance and isolate the way we were supposed to do. And I didn't hear about George Floyd being killed on the first day, because I had sort of shut off the news. I was trying to figure out what to do with my, my creative worth, my creative self, how to keep doing A Peace of My Mind in this sort of storytelling, in this new world where it was, where I couldn't do it the way I used to. 00;51;36;22 - 00;51;59;17 John Noltner But then when I found out, about the news, I knew if A Peace of My Mind was rooted in hearing other people's stories, I knew if it was a part of trying to be a better ally and to hear different ways of seeing the world, I knew that I would have to go to that intersection in some fashion. 00;51;59;17 - 00;52;26;18 John Noltner So, every day for that first week, I brought a small studio kit down to that intersection of 38th and Chicago and just asked people, “What do you want to say?” you know, and was really just there for listening, and not everybody wanted to talk. Some people were, were frustrated and angry and mourning and grieving, and some privately and some publicly. 00;52;26;18 - 00;52;46;07 John Noltner But, but over the course of that week, there were 50 people who did want to share a story. And it was important, I thought, to be able to listen and to be able to reflect it back to the community. Because it was the pandemic, normally I would just have clipboards and pens and people would write their answer on the thing. 00;52;46;09 - 00;53;11;21 John Noltner Didn't want to do that with the pandemic. So I had a little QR code people could scan with their phone and they could enter their story online, and we could stay socially distanced and people could keep their masks on if they wanted. Some people took them off. Got to the end of that process and realized that there was still a way to gather new stories, even in the midst of a pandemic. 00;53;11;24 - 00;53;41;11 John Noltner You know, maybe we could go on the road and I could set up my microphones outside and we could, you know, sit 15ft apart and we could record stories and, yeah, maybe there'd be some background environmental noise. But so what? And we could still do that, that process. And so, when you ask what I learned, I guess I learned that there was still a creative way to go forward, even though the world seemed to have shifted around us. 00;53;41;14 - 00;54;12;12 John Noltner I learned, to be willing to be bold. To- I had always felt sort of bold. But now, after being at that intersection and hearing the the urgency of some of those stories, there was a new sense of being bold and a willingness to go into these difficult places to, you know, we set up a studio at the base of a Confederate monument in Oxford, Mississippi, and ask people, “What does this statue mean to you?” 00;54;12;14 - 00;54;37;15 John Noltner As a part of listening, we went to Skid Row to talk about housing security, where there are, you know, 5 to 8000 people who are unhoused in a 50 square block area. To, to be willing to walk into those spaces and find people who are looking for creative solutions to these really difficult issues and believe that something better is possible. 00;54;37;18 - 00;54;45;13 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Toward the end of the book, you share the questions that you've asked participants, and I'm not going to read them all here. People need to get a copy of your book, right? 00;54;45;13 - 00;54;47;12 John Noltner Noltner: Yeah, they got to get the book if they want that, right? 00;54;47;13 - 00;54;58;18 J.R. Jamison Jamison: To, to to see what those questions are. But I do want to ask you one of those questions. What gives you hope? 00;54;58;21 - 00;55;41;07 John Noltner Noltner: What gives me hope is people who choose connection and healing in their life in the midst of difficult situations. What gives me hope is, people who choose love when hate would come easily, people who take their own struggles in life and find a way through it but go one step further and use that experience to shine a light for others behind them on the path, so that they can find a way through too. 00;55;41;10 - 00;56;11;14 John Noltner And these, I mean, these are my people. These are the folks that I gravitate towards. I don't care when I'm interviewing people, I don't care politics, I don't care faith, I don't care gender, class, whatever. I care about, I care about finding people who, instead of focusing on why things are hard, I'm not afraid of looking at why things are hard, but I also want to look at how things are possible. 00;56;11;16 - 00;56;29;25 John Noltner Yeah. So let's honestly reckon with and face and address the the very real challenges that we're facing. But but can we find a way to approach those challenges with a grace and a hope and a belief that something better is possible? When I'm in that space, that's what gives me hope. 00;56;29;27 - 00;56;37;21 J.R. Jamison Jamison: That's a really beautiful testament to the stories and the work that you've done these last 15 years. What's next on your- 00;56;37;22 - 00;56;38;13 John Noltner Noltner: And let me, let 00;56;38;13 - 00;57;03;04 John Noltner me just jump in and say to that, that in certain ways this is like super greedy and super self-serving because when I'm interviewing people like that, that feeds me, that sustains me. And when I feel frustrated or a little hopeless in the world, I, I go out and I do another interview with someone like this, and that's what keeps me going. 00;57;03;06 - 00;57;06;13 John Noltner So if it sounds like altruism, some of that self-serving too. 00;57;06;15 - 00;57;16;08 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Yeah, I love that, though. I mean, it's a give and a take, right? In many ways. What's next on your journey? Anything you can share with our listeners? 00;57;16;10 - 00;57;24;16 John Noltner Noltner: Yeah, I don't exactly know what this is going to look like, but I do know that we're going to lean into some international storytelling. 00;57;24;21 - 00;57;25;04 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Awesome. 00;57;25;05 - 00;57;44;19 John Noltner I've done I've done sort of our studio process on, on four continents. I've been in Bangkok, Thailand, and in Lima, Peru, and in Nairobi, Kenya. But what I really want to do is go sit in a place for several weeks and, and learn from different cultures’ experiences. 00;57;44;19 - 00;58;06;25 John Noltner So I really I want to go to Rwanda and I want to talk about ways that they have moved through their genocide. I want to go to Northern Ireland to talk about ways they've moved through their sectarian violence and ways they haven’t, right? This is not resolved. This is not complete. There are still struggles with it. 00;58;06;27 - 00;58;47;18 John Noltner I at- someday I'm going to go to Israel and, and Palestine. And now is not the time for me because I'm not a, I'm not a combat photographer, and I don't know how to do- I don't know how to work in that space. And I'm not sure if I'm brave enough to work in that space. But we are talking about going to Germany, to Leipzig, to which is the former East Germany, where they're really struggling with the rise of anti-Semitism, and Islamophobia, and to, to sit in that space and talk about how they're finding a common vision through some of that struggle. 00;58;47;18 - 00;59;08;25 John Noltner And so the goal is to visit places who have navigated conflict better or worse or, historically or presently, and try to take away some lessons from that as well. So I, I thought we were going to start that in a year or so, but now there are some rumblings and some doors that are opening as early as this summer. 00;59;08;25 - 00;59;12;16 John Noltner So if those doors open, I am not going to say no. 00;59;12;22 - 00;59;15;02 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Yeah. When they open, you go through them. [Laughs] 00;59;15;05 - 00;59;17;19 John Noltner Noltner: You say yes. Yup. 00;59;17;21 - 00;59;42;01 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Lastly, the work we do here at the Facing Project, as you know, is to create a more understanding and empathetic world. This season, I'm asking each of my guests the same question, and I'd love for you to add your perspective. How do we create a more empathetic world in a time when it feels like listening and understanding the lives of others has actually decreased? 00;59;42;04 - 01;00;12;02 John Noltner Noltner: You know, I have a friend, Joe Davis, who's a spoken word artist, and he says that we do best what we do most, which is to say we got to practice. We've got to exercise those muscles. If you want to be good at free throws, shoot 10,000 free throws. If you want to be good at conversations around division, you got to have a bunch of conversations around division. And when when those muscles are weak, 01;00;12;02 - 01;00;38;25 John Noltner and I really think collectively they are weak right now, we lean into conflict before we lean into compassion. We choose division before we choose healing. And I think we just have to practice those conversations in the- You know, if you're talking about race or if you're talking about gender, if you're talking about orientation, whatever it is, if you haven't had one of those conversations, it's probably going to be weird 01;00;38;25 - 01;00;58;10 John Noltner the first time you do, right? You're not going to you're not going to do it great, probably, if if you're like me, if you're like everybody, you're going to struggle. But if you have some patience with that process, right? Sometimes we have one of those conversations and it goes badly and we run away and say, oh my God, I'm never doing that again. 01;00;58;13 - 01;01;24;04 John Noltner But if we can have the courage to come back and do it again, well, maybe you learn something. Maybe by the time you've done ten of them, it'll start to be a little more comfortable. Maybe by the time you've done 30 of them, you've got some level of, some capacity for doing it a little bit better. If you do a thousand of them, you're going to start to develop those muscles and those skills. 01;01;24;06 - 01;02;01;29 John Noltner And I think we- it takes courage to keep showing up and practicing that. And man, if we could have a little bit of grace with one another as we are practicing that and understand that there are going to be missteps and, and, you know, maybe that maybe that wasn't, an assault, but it was just a misunderstanding. You know, maybe if we can find a little bit of grace and open that space, we can all feel a little bit more comfortable doing that, and that, I mean, these divisions and divides took a long time to to develop and grow. 01;02;02;01 - 01;02;26;07 John Noltner They're not going to go away overnight. We have to re-weave the social fabric. There's a group called Weave the Social Fabric Project, and they're they're one of these bridge building organizations that you were talking about earlier. And they're all about small grassroots efforts to re-weave that trust that is so badly frayed in our country. 01;02;26;09 - 01;02;33;17 John Noltner And I hope that people will be willing to do the hard work and to have some patience in the process. 01;02;33;20 - 01;02;40;27 J.R. Jamison Jamison: John Noltner, award winning photographer, author and founder of A Peace of My Mind, thank you so much for joining me on the Facing Project. 01;02;40;29 - 01;02;43;08 John Noltner Noltner: Thanks for having me J.R.. Great to talk with you. 01;02;43;10 - 01;02;56;15 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Same. Learn more about John Noltner and A Peace of My Mind, including books and upcoming events, at APOMM.net. [Theme music] 01;02;56;18 - 01;03;20;28 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Many thanks once again to John Noltner for joining me on today's show. To listen to past episodes of this program, visit IndianaPublicRadio.org/TheFacingProject, or find us on your favorite podcasting app, or just ask your smart speaker to play The Facing Project on NPR. To continue the conversation about this episode, find us on Facebook, Instagram, and X at The Facing Project. 01;03;21;00 - 01;03;44;29 J.R. Jamison The Facing Project is recorded at Indiana Public Radio at Ball State University in beautiful and wonderful Muncie, Indiana, and is produced by the amazing producer and audio engineer extraordinaire, Sean Ashcraft. The show is distributed nationally through PRX. I'm your host, J.R. Jamison, and until next time, I wish you the courage to share your own story in the empathy to listen to others. [Theme music fades to silence]