Please note: Accuracy and availability of IPR transcripts may vary. 00;00;03;17 - 00;00;22;18 Ursula Liang Liang: As a filmmaker, I want to be fair, and you have an obligation to be very journalistic. And I was always clear to him that I wasn't going to, you know, I wasn't going to skip the narrative in advance. I wasn't coming in to tell a specific story. I was coming in to listen to him. I think they believed this is a film that that will help them. 00;00;22;20 - 00;00;46;28 J.R. Jamison Jamison: I'm J.R. Jamison. Today on The Facing Project, I sit down with filmmaker, producer and journalist Ursula Liang to talk about her latest film, Two Strikes, a documentary short that follows the two strikes law in Florida that put a former West Point cadet struggling with PTSD and alcoholism in prison for life without the possibility of parole. We also explore how to tell authentic stories through print and film. 00;00;46;29 - 00;01;04;04 J.R. Jamison Stay with us. 00;01;04;07 - 00;01;35;05 J.R. Jamison This season, I'm doing something a little different to mix up our format. I'll still share stories from past facing projects to shine a light on specific topics and issues, but also I'll sit down for long form interviews with bestselling authors, filmmakers, and other artists who are using their platforms to make the world a more understanding and empathetic place, asking each of them this question how do we create a more empathetic world in a time when listening has decreased and each person's message is competing with millions of others? 00;01;35;12 - 00;02;02;09 J.R. Jamison Today's guest is filmmaker, producer and journalist Ursula Liang, who has spent her career as a storyteller, working for major outlets such as The New York Times, ESPN magazine, the Asia Pacific Forum on Wbai, stir TV, the Jack show, hyphen Magazine, and The New Yorker Festival, among others, and her producing credits include 1st October, Tough Love. Will I Need Mommy? 00;02;02;11 - 00;02;33;03 J.R. Jamison UFC countdown and UFC Prime Time. Ursula's film work includes features and shorts such as Nine Man, a streetball battle in the heart of Chinatown that uncovers an isolated and unique tournament played by Chinese-Americans in the heart of Chinatowns across the USA and Canada, where all participants are 100% Chinese. In Jeanette Lee VS for ESPN's 30 for 30 The Profiles, the legendary Korean-American pool player also known as the Black Widow. 00;02;33;10 - 00;03;05;00 J.R. Jamison In Down a Dark Stairwell, Ursula chronicles the tragic story of a Chinese-American police officer who kills an innocent black man, and the subsequent events of two marginalized communities thrust into an uneven criminal justice system. In her latest film, Two Strikes tells the story of how a former West Point cadet struggling with PTSD and alcoholism got life in prison in Florida after an attempted carjacking, a sentence that even the victim viewed as too harsh. 00;03;05;02 - 00;03;09;23 J.R. Jamison Ursula Liang, filmmaker, producer and journalist. Thank you for joining me on The Facing Project. 00;03;09;24 - 00;03;11;09 Ursula Liang Liang: Thank you so much for having me. 00;03;11;14 - 00;03;32;09 J.R. Jamison Jamison: I'm such a fan of your work, and at heart, it's clear that you're a storyteller and you've done that through feature films and shorts, but you're also a print online journalist and have spent a good amount of your career in those spaces. I'm curious to know, which outlet have you found to be the most effective way to tell a story? 00;03;32;11 - 00;03;59;10 Ursula Liang Liang: Oh, that's a hard question. It's like choosing children. I think it's it's really hard to tell. Actually, we don't get a lot of feedback from the work we do. You know, when you write something in a newspaper or in a magazine, you don't actually see the person reading it and you don't often interact with them? I'm old enough that I was working at a time where people weren't reaching directly out to on Twitter and writing you an email, so I feel like I didn't get a lot of feedback on that stuff earlier in my career. 00;03;59;10 - 00;04;25;16 Ursula Liang And the film work has come later and you get to be in a film festival sometimes and see people's faces, see them, hear them laugh or watch them cry. So that can be very rewarding. I have in some times, you know, in some places I've resisted telling stories in a certain format because I think in particular, I'm working in Asian American Stories, and I had thought of a really great story that would be so much easier to tell and so much cheaper to tell. 00;04;25;18 - 00;04;46;05 Ursula Liang If I had done a podcast or does something audio, it would be really compelling. But I'm reminded that there's still not a lot of representations of Asian Americans in the media, and that one of the things we suffer from as a community is this sort of like persistent othering, where people don't think when they see an American face, they don't imagine a Chinese American face, they imagine a white face. 00;04;46;05 - 00;05;22;08 Ursula Liang And so I felt like it's still a time in this country where it's important for Asian Americans to have their faces seen telling American stories. And so I resisted telling that story, which not has not yet been told in a podcast form. I thought, you know, people want to see this guy's face. One of my first films, you know, part of what I was doing, you know, aside from the narrative I was telling, was to just present Asian Americans with different body types and different voices, you know, with Boston accent, southern accents, Chinatown accents, tall, short, fat fit. 00;05;22;11 - 00;05;32;26 Ursula Liang I think some of those things help unpack the stereotypes that people have. And so I think film, for me, has been an important part of the work I'm doing to change how people see the Asian American community. 00;05;32;28 - 00;05;56;13 J.R. Jamison Jamison: And I loved when I watched your film Nine Man, how you do that exactly. We saw Chinese American men who are part of the sport who do have Boston accents. And I love how you you shaped that narrative in a way, because it might be surprising for some people who view it. And that's a positive thing. 00;05;56;17 - 00;06;13;04 Ursula Liang Liang: Yeah. I mean, I'm also aware that not everybody watches a film like I want them to watch it. Like, I really hope you're in a dark theater paying attention to every single word because I've spent so long crafting that one second in that film. But the reality is, a lot of people are watching and they're on their phones while they're watching or they're doing something else. 00;06;13;04 - 00;06;32;23 Ursula Liang And so I think when you're creating like a complex narrative with lots of little details, a lot of those things get lost. So I'm always trying to paint something simple that gets to an audience, even if they're not getting all the complex things that I'm putting into it. And so that can just be like, I'm glancing up from my phone and I'm seeing this character that I didn't expect to see. 00;06;32;25 - 00;06;57;00 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Talk a little more about when you decided to move from print journalism to filmmaking, what was your ultimate decision around that? And now that you've moved forward in that direction, do you still play in both spaces, or do you feel film is really kind of the right outlet for the way you want to tell stories? 00;06;57;02 - 00;07;15;15 Ursula Liang Liang: I think I'm here to stay. I think the main reason I started moving into sort of a multimedia space is because, number one, I don't think I'm the most gifted writer. And when I looked at the people I admired, the people who were ahead of me in their careers, who I wanted to be like, they were still staying up until like four in the morning, writing something and second guessing themselves. 00;07;15;15 - 00;07;32;14 Ursula Liang That's what I used to have to do. I would, I would be so overthinking each word that I would have to stay up to a point where I was so tired that I wouldn't second guess myself. And so I felt like, okay, that's not going to end for me. That's going to continue to be how I write. I was also working at the New York Times at that at that point, and they had done layoffs like several times. 00;07;32;14 - 00;07;48;20 Ursula Liang And so I actually was I was able to volunteer for a buyout. You know, it sort of felt like the world of print was really struggling. And, and even people who were in print were being asked to do more. They were being asked to do multimedia. They were being asked to film themselves, send photos, do all this other stuff when they were in the field. 00;07;48;20 - 00;08;06;05 Ursula Liang And so I was able to take advantage of some of the really great benefits at that company and take some editing classes and sort of dip my toe into that space. While I was at that company, took some Spanish classes, and then I bought a camera and I just started filming my first film, and that was actually nine. 00;08;06;07 - 00;08;23;26 Ursula Liang And I didn't know what I was doing technically, I just got a camera started, you know, recording, asked some friends how to do it, and little by little, I sort of used that film as my film school. And, you know, you can see it on screen. But I did have a background in storytelling. So where I was lacking technically, I did have a sense of what needed to be told. 00;08;23;26 - 00;08;48;10 Ursula Liang And then I made that pivot. And I think sometimes I think most of the time when people make a first film, they don't really understand how much work it's going to be and how many parts of your brain it's going to stretch. They do it because they're done. And I did it because I was dumb, and I picked the dumbest first subject, one that was like, not in one language and and had multiple cities and too many characters and fast moving people and young people who don't respond to text messages or emails. 00;08;48;10 - 00;09;06;07 Ursula Liang And I just, you know, once I was in it, I was in it and I was rolling with it. And I think it's if you're a person that comes from a creative background, it's like a really exciting place to play. You get to, you get to deal with audio, you get to deal with animation, you get to do with art direction, you get to deal with music. 00;09;06;10 - 00;09;23;19 Ursula Liang All these things that you get to sort of be the boss of and have an opinion about, even if you have no experience. So it really works your creative brain in ways that that writing doesn't. You also have to write, you know, I mean, I had to write a lot of grant proposals and a lot of, you know, summaries and log lines to be able to get that film done. 00;09;23;20 - 00;09;37;17 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Yeah. The storytelling background, I think, is so critical, as you said, to moving toward film, because you do have to still tell a story through that process. What do you find to be the hardest part of filmmaking? 00;09;37;20 - 00;10;01;28 Ursula Liang Liang: Oh, it's the fundraising. It's the fundraising, for sure. And we're in a moment right now where it's even more insecure. Artists are not really well supported in this country. I think in other countries, the art of filmmaking is a little bit more stable because they they tend to support the maker rather than the film project. And we don't have that many types of funding sources in America where the maker is being supported there supporting a specific idea. 00;10;01;28 - 00;10;17;17 Ursula Liang And in order to demonstrate your idea to get the funding, you actually have to go in the whole quite a lot and spend a lot of time to get to that point. So, you know, my films that I did as independent producer took, you know, 5 to 7 years. And so that's partially because I'm filming the story at the same time as I'm raising the money. 00;10;17;17 - 00;10;38;00 Ursula Liang And if I had all the money up front, I could film it a lot faster. It's just, you know, when I did my first commission, it took us less than a year to make that film, and that was because the budget was all there. The support was all there. So I definitely think that's the hardest part. You know, it's no part of it's easy, but but, but that's the hardest part. 00;10;38;02 - 00;11;03;28 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Your most recent film project with PBS frontline was Two Strikes Short, that follows the story of Mark Jones, who received life in prison without parole due to Florida's two strikes law, or, more formally known as the Prism Release Re-offending Law. To provide some context for our listeners. This law looks at violent offenses such as murder, treason, kidnaping, sexual battery and in this case, attempted carjacking and theft. 00;11;03;28 - 00;11;20;24 J.R. Jamison And the law states that if an alleged offender has served time three years or less prior and they're found guilty again, they must receive the maximum sentence. And of course, in Mark's case, he received life without parole. What was it about the story that spoke to you? 00;11;20;27 - 00;11;46;26 Ursula Liang Liang: This is specifically for felony offenses. You know, this the story spoke to me. It had a specificity, which I really loved. You know, his story is very unique. What happens to him is very unique. He is very unique. But it also is it's a unique story held within a law that's actually affecting a lot of people. It was intended to really address and streamline the process for punishing people who, you know, committed these heinous crimes. 00;11;46;26 - 00;12;09;10 Ursula Liang But what's happening in the reality of the law is that this dragnet is sort of catching up, people that I think the general public wouldn't expect it to catch up in its net. What really struck me as the specific story had all these sort of greater implications, and it involved all these really great institutions, the carceral system, the military, the VA politics. 00;12;09;10 - 00;12;20;07 Ursula Liang And so having a chance to look at those huge systems through the lens of this small particular law and this very specific case was very interesting to me. 00;12;20;09 - 00;12;36;18 J.R. Jamison Jamison: The film itself is a short it's about 20 minutes in length, yet so much ground was covered. Everything you just talked about in more talk about the advantages of shorts versus features, and why did you choose to do a short for this film? 00;12;36;19 - 00;12;57;08 Ursula Liang Liang: Well, this is my first short, so I really didn't know how to make a short. And I think a short is almost as hard to make as a feature. We had actually pitched this at like 12 to 15 minutes in length, and it sort of ballooned a little bit. And because it had been intentionally because it had been intended for online to begin with, we could stretch the runtime a little bit. 00;12;57;10 - 00;13;21;25 Ursula Liang The advantage of a short is that a lot of people watch it. You know, if you're looking to have your film watched by people, the runtime really makes a difference. If you're looking to have your film used in educational spaces, anything over an hour is really complicated to program in an educational space. It's also, you know, you can also refine your story to a really specific narrative in a feature. 00;13;21;25 - 00;13;43;28 Ursula Liang There's often all these tangles and threads that you have to weave. And we were able to focus on one subject and hopefully not bore people. At the time that I was making this film, it was part of a fellowship with team Firelight Media and Frontline to support producers of color in emerging into this investigative and deeply reported storytelling space. 00;13;43;28 - 00;14;06;13 Ursula Liang So the directive was actually to make a short. But I was also sort of recovering, if you will, from having had a baby. And so for me to be able to tell a story that was much more focused and production was really a blessing at that time, I needed some time to get back on my feet and to be able to hold a lot of things in my head that were not the filmmaking. 00;14;06;13 - 00;14;18;02 Ursula Liang And so to be able to focus on one subject, a very streamlined story and get intimate with that person was was really an advantage at that time for me personally and professionally. 00;14;18;05 - 00;14;43;16 J.R. Jamison Jamison: And it's really unique to how you do capture other stories a bit. I mean, of course, those around Mark and those who were involved in his story and situation, but you also show through just very quick snippets, others who have been convicted due to this law. I was surprised by the number of people who had received severe sentences around that. 00;14;43;16 - 00;15;06;26 J.R. Jamison And I feel like around this law, and I feel like you did a great job of quickly showing that while still centering Mark story. Talk a bit about the process of reaching out to individuals to include them in a film and how that works in a bit of the convincing of being a part of this broader story that you're telling. 00;15;06;28 - 00;15;36;23 Ursula Liang Liang: Oh, it's difficult when they're locked up, for sure. We had to find family members, find people that we could talk to, and it's hard to even get like physical communications to someone in prison to get them to sign something. So my producer, Tessa Travis, and I reached out to these folks. And to be honest, when you're in prison and you hear that you're going to be included in a story that seems like it might help people see this law that you feel isn't just they were really excited to be included. 00;15;36;23 - 00;15;57;05 Ursula Liang And I got messages after the film is released from family members thanking me for just including that one little photo in a montage. I mean, I think you lose a lot of hope. I mean, these are people that are in prison for life. And, you know, I think there's this delicate balance of having hope and not wishing for too much because it's pretty grim. 00;15;57;07 - 00;16;24;18 Ursula Liang I mean, a lot of people really do want their stories told, though. I think you'd be surprised. I find that most people actually want to be heard if they're being heard by someone who's really listening, and people often ask that question when they when they see my other films that are specifically in the Asian American community, because they're not a lot of stories told about Asian American people, people who are not speaking English, especially the old types, you know, these old guys walking around in Chinatown. 00;16;24;19 - 00;16;46;03 Ursula Liang But I found that I haven't really found anybody who didn't want to talk. If you open yourselves to those those people and listen, they have something they want to say. And I made another film about a police shooting of a young black man in New York and one of his friends. You know, we had a very deep and emotional conversation. 00;16;46;03 - 00;17;09;13 Ursula Liang And I remember his response to the film. You know, you're always nervous when someone's very emotional or very raw on screen, how they'll feel about it later. He contacted me and he said that he was just happy that he was able to say something and have his voice heard. And I think, you know, we underestimate the number of people in this world who don't get to have a voice and who don't get to be listened to. 00;17;09;15 - 00;17;24;00 Ursula Liang So for that young black man, that was really important. And he wasn't bothered by being vulnerable on screen, he was happy to be included in something where he got to say what he wanted to say. 00;17;24;03 - 00;17;50;16 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Thinking about vulnerability, there's a moment in Two Strikes where Rose Marx wife talks about how the two strikes law not only imprisons in individual, but an entire family. She's dedicated to her husband in that comes through. That's strong in the work that you did. And in some ways, it feels like her life is now on hold. I get the sense through her story that she she's still dedicated to Mark. 00;17;50;16 - 00;18;16;16 J.R. Jamison She's still communicating with him. She's still wanting to advocate for his release. But it definitely felt like her life was in this holding pattern. We also learned that Mark's parents become ill. They pass on as well, and in the 12 years that he's been in prison, he's experienced a lot of heavy losses beyond being sentenced to life in prison, as have others around him. 00;18;16;22 - 00;18;29;11 J.R. Jamison So you capture these strong personal moments that humanize Mark and allow other viewers to empathize with him and his family as a storyteller. Talk about how you handle these types of interviews and poignant moments. 00;18;29;13 - 00;18;55;29 Ursula Liang Liang: Oh, it's really hard. I think the most important thing is to listen. And also I tend to want to like, approach and then retreat a little bit, you know, present myself, let them know that I'm there, but also let them hold a line and let them cross the line rather than poking and pressing and prodding people. I think it's also really important to think about whether what you're doing and what the information you're getting is really necessary. 00;18;56;02 - 00;19;17;25 Ursula Liang I think that there is in storytelling, there can be a danger of pressing people for a mode of content and being extractive. Just taking that with you or doing it for no reason. You know, when people are telling you things that are emotional and going through all that, sometimes it's healing for them and sometimes it's for them. So I think it's really important to consider those things. 00;19;17;27 - 00;19;43;10 Ursula Liang In one film, down a dark stairwell where we spoke to the domestic partner or the person who was killed. We spent a long time talking to her, and we actually ultimately didn't use an interview. We didn't do an interview with her. We used a previous interview that was already done because we felt like that had the content that we needed, and we didn't need to put her through the trauma of doing another interview, talking about her loved one being killed. 00;19;43;12 - 00;19;55;08 Ursula Liang And it worked fine. You know, for me as a filmmaker, would I have liked a different background, would have like different lighting? Would I have asked different questions? Yes. But it didn't feel 100% necessary. 00;19;55;10 - 00;20;06;29 J.R. Jamison Jamison: As the film enfolds, it's clear that Mark suffered from mental health issues and alcoholism. How are these considered, if at all, during trials for those facing two strikes? 00;20;07;02 - 00;20;38;19 Ursula Liang Liang: I don't know, I wasn't in the courtroom. I think the answer is probably not at all. I mean, the thing about this law that's so difficult is that it's an automatic situation. It's there's there's no discretion given to the judges. Here it is. You were given that sentence, and that is a sentence you are given so that it's you know, these are things a lot of people caught up in this law in particular and caught up in the carceral system are people who are committing crimes of addiction and things that deal with mental health. 00;20;38;19 - 00;21;02;22 Ursula Liang So I think, you know, if you look at the population in prison in America, you'll see a lot of people suffering from things that they're trying to repair by self-medicating, doing drugs. And then they sort of spiral out of nowhere and up in the prison system. So, you know, I think, I think everybody would like all these things to be considered when people are being judged for what they've done. 00;21;02;22 - 00;21;29;00 Ursula Liang But it's very hard, you know, and you look at the comments underneath the video and, you know, I think people don't suffer from those things in their lives, don't really have a ton of compassion for people who do. It's very hard to understand what it feels like to be an addict, or to be a person with bipolar disorder and walk through this world and try to maintain this sort of law and order point of view that other people want to maintain. 00;21;29;02 - 00;21;55;04 Ursula Liang So you'll see a lot of people that are like, you know, whatever depression, alcoholism, whatever, I made it through and I didn't steal anyone's car and I didn't do this. And so I don't know how much forgiveness there is for people with with mental health issues and addiction issues. Maybe I'm being pessimistic. You know, I don't know. It's it's maybe there's tons of compassion, but but it's it's not filtering through to the justice system. 00;21;55;06 - 00;22;30;11 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Yeah I think you're absolutely right. We're not doing a good job in this country supporting those who have mental health. That often does lead to other issues like substance abuse due to self-medicating and extra etc. they do spiral into other issues that get us to the story that you shared. For Mark around Mark on Two strikes, and I left watching the film feeling a little hopeless for Mark in some ways, because it seems like how does he get out of this situation? 00;22;30;14 - 00;22;59;05 J.R. Jamison A decision has been made by the courts and he is imprisoned for life without parole. But he's doing good work while he's in prison. And you show this in the film. He's now a law clerk at the prison law library, and he's helping him. But he brings together for other inmates some some who are incarcerated might get sentences reduced for providing good deeds such as this and other circumstances, but in this case, it doesn't seem like whoever get out. 00;22;59;09 - 00;23;06;19 J.R. Jamison What does that say about his character? And does he hold on to hope that one day he might be free? 00;23;06;22 - 00;23;39;04 Ursula Liang Liang: Well, you know, in some ways I wanted people to watch the film and not necessarily have to like him to think about the law and whether what he, the time he's serving is just. I mean, you can think Mark is a terrible guy, but does he deserve to be in prison for life for what he did? And, you know, for your listeners, what he did and convicted of is attempting to carjack an old lady who was in a parking lot of a grocery store and and the her account was that he reached in or he demanded her keys. 00;23;39;04 - 00;24;01;03 Ursula Liang He reached in an open window. It was a hot day. And and then when she screamed, someone came and he started walking away. And that was that was what happened. So, you know, you can think he's completely guilty. You can think he's a terrible human being. You don't have to think he's a good guy for helping other prisoners, you know, with their legal stuff. 00;24;01;05 - 00;24;22;03 Ursula Liang Does that deserve a life sentence? And is it worth it for us to spend the money on incarcerating him? Does he have a chance at rehabilitation? You know, you know, it's. Can I judge his character? I'm not sure. He's doing specific things. He's always nice and cordial to me. He's a very smart guy. He has a master's degree and was in, you know, at West Point. 00;24;22;04 - 00;24;40;21 Ursula Liang He's a law and order guy. That's how his life started. He had a, a traumatic incident happened at West Point that made him spiral into some PTSD and alcoholism. You know, I don't know if I can judge his character. I can judge our interaction. And he was he was very you know, he was very likable to me. 00;24;40;28 - 00;25;05;22 Ursula Liang But, you know, this is a man who who needs me to like him, who needs to get out of prison. And does he hold on to hope? I don't know, I'm sure he has hope some days and doesn't have hope other days. Ultimately, I think the only way he could get out at this point is through like a Supreme Court petition, which would be very likely to be turned away immediately, or, you know, the governmental pardon or maybe this lobbying overturned. 00;25;05;26 - 00;25;24;21 Ursula Liang Those all seem like far reaches in this moment in time in America. And so, I don't know, you know, whether he hangs on to hope with those. And I think there was a fairly positive response to the film. You know, does the film help him? Does it not? Like I said, there comments that say he deserves what he got, and there's some comments that say he does not. 00;25;24;27 - 00;25;32;03 Ursula Liang But is anybody willing to fight for him? Is anybody taking this to the legislature? Is anyone taking this to the governor? I don't know. 00;25;32;06 - 00;25;36;04 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Has he seen the film? Is he able to see the film? 00;25;36;07 - 00;25;55;04 Ursula Liang Liang: Yeah, he has seen the film. And I think he he appreciated the filming that went on. And I you know, when you're making a film, you're always concerned how the subject will view it because, you know, as a, as a filmmaker, I want to be fair and, you know, specifically working for frontline, you have an obligation to be very journalistic. 00;25;55;04 - 00;26;10;00 Ursula Liang And I was always clear to him that I wasn't going to, you know, I wasn't going to script the narrative in advance. I wasn't coming in to tell a specific story. I was coming in to listen to him. And, you know, there's very unfavorable things in that in that film. You know, if I'm him watching it, there are things that are unfavorable. 00;26;10;00 - 00;26;37;28 Ursula Liang But I think he understands. He's a really smart guy. He understands that, sometimes you need to have a complicated narrative to be able to sort of see the other side of it, to really have a stronger opinion when you come out. So, I mean, I think, you know, he and Rose and their family have thanked us. And I think, you know, whether that's what they're saying behind closed doors, I don't know, but I think they believe this is a film that that will help them. 00;26;38;01 - 00;26;53;09 J.R. Jamison Jamison: After you put the film together, as you mentioned, it wasn't prescriptive. You weren't coming in with a specific story to tell, but to tell the story, as it were. Is there anything after you put the film together that you wish you would have included? 00;26;53;11 - 00;27;18;12 Ursula Liang Liang: I don't know, you know, it was what I wish. I mean, I guess, you know, you mentioned the the montage of the other people caught up in the PRR statute. You know, Mark is a white guy. He's, you know, a law and order, West Point cadet. A lot of the people who are disproportionately caught up in this are men of color, particularly black men. 00;27;18;12 - 00;27;45;04 Ursula Liang And we, you know, part of the purpose of that montage was to nod to that because, you know, most of the laws in this country are disproportionately affecting black men. And while we weren't able to talk about that in specific, we felt like it was a little bit of a a side bend for the film. We wanted to make sure that was visually known and understood to, to viewers, and I think that they do understand that would it would have liked to have had a sidebar about that. 00;27;45;04 - 00;28;10;26 Ursula Liang Possibly. But I think the point was really to humanize this story in order to have people question a law that ultimately affects all of these guys. And, you know, the thing, the best thing we could do was make a narrative that really that really resonated with people in order to get them to do something that would help all communities affected by the law. 00;28;10;28 - 00;28;18;27 J.R. Jamison Jamison: The film itself, Two Strikes, has been out now for several months. How has it helped shape discussions around the law? 00;28;19;04 - 00;28;45;00 Ursula Liang Liang: I don't know that it has. You know, it actually was released on television during Labor Day week, so it was a little bit of an off day to drop it, and I don't know how far it's gotten around. I do know that there are some people in prison who are incarcerated who have watched it, because that's gotten around to me, and I think it must be nice for those guys to see that people are questioning things that they may think are unfair. 00;28;45;02 - 00;29;10;18 Ursula Liang You know, I think if nothing more than offers hope to some people that we're considering these laws and whether or not they still work or ever worked, I think that's valuable. But I'm not sure, you know, to this date, I don't know that there's anybody pushing for any legislative change related to PRR. I think it will take the right person watching the film to make that move happen. 00;29;10;18 - 00;29;27;13 Ursula Liang And that's what you do when you're making a film. Like, you know, he's disappointed about the viewership or who saw it, or this person didn't see it. And my friend and X, y, Z, you know, state didn't watch it and I thought they were going to support me. But it really is about the right person watching it. You know, you and I are connected right now because you saw the film. 00;29;27;13 - 00;29;37;03 Ursula Liang And sometimes it takes it takes just that one person to to watch the film and to be moved and for that movement to make them make a difference. 00;29;37;05 - 00;30;07;10 J.R. Jamison Jamison: And I was moved when I saw the film. As I mentioned to you earlier, offline, I was not aware of the two strikes law before watching the film. It opened my eyes in a positive way and that I hope something changes in the law. But you're right, getting the message out through storytelling in the way you did, it's going to eventually reach the right people who will say, let's take another look at this. 00;30;07;11 - 00;30;47;10 J.R. Jamison I want to talk for a moment about a few of your other films. Jeanette Lee versus for ESPN's 30 for 30 profiles. The legendary Korean-American pool player also known as the Black Widow down a dark stairwell, which we've talked a little bit about, chronicles the tragic story of a Chinese-American police officer who kills an innocent black man. In the subsequent events of two marginalized communities thrust into an uneven criminal justice system in Nine Man, which we also briefly talked about, uncovers an isolated and unique streetball tournament played by Chinese-Americans in the heart of Chinatowns across USA and Canada, where all participants are 100% Chinese. 00;30;47;11 - 00;30;56;06 J.R. Jamison As an Asian American filmmaker, what is telling these stories meant to you and what broader story do you hope these films tell? 00;30;56;09 - 00;31;15;21 Ursula Liang Liang: Well, it's been a learning experience. I grew up as a mixed race person in America, in a mostly white neighborhood outside of Boston. You know, my contact with Chinese culture was going once a week to the Chinese restaurant and having mushu pancakes, which I loved, you know, but my father doesn't speak Chinese. We didn't get a lot of, like, cultural learning. 00;31;15;21 - 00;31;38;08 Ursula Liang I think, you know, when he moved to America, he moved to Baltimore in a in a time where he was pretty much the one in his neighborhood, and he really survived by sort of adopting white culture. And I think that sort of was violently impressed upon him. You know, he was one of those things where he would get beat up because he could only say, okay, you know, do you want me to beat you up? 00;31;38;08 - 00;31;55;04 Ursula Liang Okay, can I take your lunch money? Okay. And so I think he lost a lot of his culture out of necessity. And so, you know, we as kids didn't get it passed on through our parents. And one of the beautiful things about making films in this community, I really didn't really understand how much it was going to affect me personally. 00;31;55;04 - 00;32;33;01 Ursula Liang I just was interested in the topic. But being immersed in Chinatown for my first film, Nine Man, meant that I was taking, you know, $10 Chinatown busses between all of the Chinatowns in North America and, you know, eating dumplings on the street and talking to people that I wouldn't have interaction with. And I think as a mixed race person, I've always been a little bit unsure of my membership in, in certain communities and to sort of have those folks, you know, be skeptical of me at first, as all subjects are, and then gain trust and like sort of welcome me in and then never question my Asian ness. 00;32;33;01 - 00;32;50;21 Ursula Liang Although on the court, they questioned people's Asian ness all the time because of this, like 100% Chinese rule. In fact, two thirds of people on the court have to be 100% Chinese, and the others get question frequently, sort of to have that embrace because I was telling a story that they wanted told, and I was listening to them in a respectful way. 00;32;50;22 - 00;33;12;20 Ursula Liang That was really joyful for me as a filmmaker. And when I finished that film, after many years of filming, I was like, I'm never making a film in Chinatown again. I've been there for the last like seven years, and I've eaten a lot of dumplings. And then the story about the police officer emerged, and his name was actually Peter Liang, which is my brother's name and my last name. 00;33;12;20 - 00;33;28;16 Ursula Liang And it felt like I was sort of being called to tell that story. And I looked around and I saw, you know, there's still not a lot of prominent Asian-American directors who who know enough how to get the funding and to get the film to a place where it's actually going to be seen by people. So, you know, things were pointing at me to make that film. 00;33;28;16 - 00;33;58;18 Ursula Liang And so then I made that film and spent another so in so many years in Chinatown. So what does it meant to me? It's meant to me a lot personally, because it's allowed me to sort of have a PhD in Chinatown culture and Chinatown relationships that I wouldn't have had without making these films. It's also meant a lot to me, because it's made me a bit of a leader in the community, someone that people turn to and listen to and respect opinion about the community, and I don't think I would have had that perch living my life before making these films. 00;33;58;20 - 00;34;14;29 Ursula Liang It's also meant a lot to have the responsibility of telling these stories. When you're making stories about Asian American people who are not well represented in the media, there's always this anxiety from the community that you're going to tell a bad story and that you're not, you know, we don't have any stories about us. You can't tell a bad story. 00;34;15;01 - 00;34;35;15 Ursula Liang There's this sort of long, long loved legend about when the film Better Luck Tomorrow, which is one of the first, like Asian American narrative films to make it big, came out. It played at Sundance. It was it was a film by Justin Lin, who now directs the Fast and the furious franchise. And it was an indie film all about Asian Americans. 00;34;35;15 - 00;34;59;01 Ursula Liang And they were not good Asian Americans. They were bad Asian Americans. But when it premiered at Sundance, there were lots of people in the audience who stood up at the Q&A and like, really were upset about it, that he would take the time and in such a public way to have these bad Asians on display in. And the famous story is that Roger Ebert, who is a famous film critic, got up in that in that audience and defended Justin Lin. 00;34;59;01 - 00;35;20;19 Ursula Liang He is one of sort of the most beloved film critics of all time. And the white guy and the fact that he stood up and defended that film and the nuanced portrayal of these characters who you really do love, despite them being quote unquote, like bad Asians and how valuable that is to have in this society. So there is this, you know, when I was making nine man, for instance, is a sports film. 00;35;20;19 - 00;35;37;14 Ursula Liang When you think about a sports film, only one person wins ever. Everyone else is a loser in a film about a competition film. And so, like, nobody wanted to be shown losing, you know, they hated when I was around with the camera and they were losing. They wanted to be shown like hitting the ball really well, winning. But ultimately none of them were going to be that person. 00;35;37;14 - 00;35;56;18 Ursula Liang They were all going to be losers, but they were all going to have complexity and character, and they were their audience members that were going to love them even when they were losers. And so that was something I kept in mind, but it was something I really had to keep talking about when I was making the film and when I was making the Peter Liang film, the film about the police officer who shot a black man, that one. 00;35;56;19 - 00;36;13;18 Ursula Liang There were people in the community who didn't want me to tell that story. They said, enough has happened. This is a film that really, like, really drove a lot of wedges between the black and Asian community. And we've worked so hard for all this solidarity, and we don't want you to make this film. This was coming from, you know, leaders in the community and people in the film space. 00;36;13;20 - 00;36;42;21 Ursula Liang And they were worried about the film and they didn't want me to make it. So it was it was that much harder to make. So there is a lot of responsibility in making them. And when you make them and they come out and people respond positively to either characters of the film, that's very rewarding. You know, coming out of Nine Man or LA screening, there was like an eight year old boy that walked out and he was talking to his mom while I was just standing in the throng, and he said, this makes me proud to be Chinese. 00;36;42;21 - 00;36;49;27 Ursula Liang And, you know, hearing something like that is really valuable and really rewarding. And it's why I keep making films. 00;36;49;29 - 00;36;54;22 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Did you learn how to play nine ball during that process? Have you tried your hand at it? 00;36;54;27 - 00;37;04;17 Ursula Liang Liang: It's really funny. You said nine ball, which everyone does, but that's the Jeanette Lee film. She plays nine on the ball, and it's so funny that I've made a film about nine ball and nine. 00;37;04;19 - 00;37;09;17 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Nine man. Sorry. Oh no, that was that was a very closely related films. 00;37;09;17 - 00;37;36;07 Ursula Liang Liang: Everybody kept calling it nine Ball. So I went and made an about pool playing. I actually I actually played in the women's league that's adjacent to the nine man community. There's a women's tournament that plays six sixes alongside the nine man community. And it is it is actually regular volleyball standard volleyball rules, and it has very different legacy and cultural importance. 00;37;36;09 - 00;37;49;26 Ursula Liang But yes, I know the rules of nine, man. I've never played it myself, but I actually have played in that sort of Chinatown volleyball space. And so in six person. 00;37;49;28 - 00;38;23;03 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Culturally speaking, as you've made these films about other Asian Americans and you're seeing a bit of your own culture and the pride that comes with that, and thinking about your own youth in Boston and growing up and what your dad had to face with basically letting go of his identity in some ways and for to survive. And I imagine as you were younger, maybe as you grew up, you kind of faced that same cultural situation. 00;38;23;10 - 00;38;42;06 J.R. Jamison If I'm understanding what you're saying as you got into filmmaking, though, you're reimbursing that identity and learning more from your culture. What is it from those experiences that you've realized or staying with you, that you want to teach future generations in your family that maybe have been lost before? 00;38;42;08 - 00;39;04;19 Ursula Liang Liang: I don't know, I think every individual probably needs to go through their own journey. I mean, I was a person who definitely felt like I looked different and nobody necessarily saw me as Chinese. It wasn't this anti-Chinese environment like there is today. But, you know, I was in a in a community where I was definitely seen as other, but I tried to embrace other. 00;39;04;19 - 00;39;24;08 Ursula Liang I was the kind of kid in high school that I would wear my t shirts inside out just so they wouldn't be regular, and so that I could, like, purposely be different rather than accidentally be different and othered. I don't know, I mean, I think you you, I'm not sure any teen or kid is ever not going to go through that. 00;39;24;08 - 00;39;51;27 Ursula Liang I'm sure you, as a white man in America, went through your version of that for whatever identities you you know, you belong to. We all feel a little bit different and a little bit alone and a little bit outside of of the group at points in our lives. And I guess my advice would be to, you know, know that we're all going through that despite our differences. 00;39;51;29 - 00;40;12;12 Ursula Liang We're individually going through that. Even the kids that are in the popular crowd, the people who are the CEOs of the company, every one of us has some sort of feeling like we're not we're not 100%. They're not 100% embraced by the people we want to be. And so I think knowing that we're all feeling those things simultaneously is important. 00;40;12;16 - 00;40;30;18 Ursula Liang When we made down a dark stairwell, for instance, there is a lot of there. There's a lack of interaction between the black and Asian communities. And one of the things we tried to do within the film is to show parallels, despite the fact that those communities are not interacting. We wanted them to know that they're parallels in their lives. 00;40;30;18 - 00;40;47;26 Ursula Liang So there are a lot of interstitial moments there where we have, you know, what my composer would call Asian people doing shit, black people doing shit. It's just like they're walking about their daily lives. We, you know, we include a lot of imagery of people doing stairs. Like, there's like one guy, like banging a bunch of boxes on a dolly up the stairs. 00;40;47;26 - 00;41;14;08 Ursula Liang This is, you know, how how a Kigali in that film was killed. He was walking up and down the stairs. So there's a lot of we wanted people to see a little bit of a parallel, you know, just working class people in America try and care for their kids, trying to get by, trying to do stuff. There's a lot of other and a lot of conflict between groups and individuals, because we don't see that we're actually walking parallel paths, not intersecting, but feeling the same things and doing the same things. 00;41;14;10 - 00;41;19;21 J.R. Jamison Jamison: What advice do you have for aspiring filmmakers and storytellers? 00;41;19;28 - 00;41;40;25 Ursula Liang Liang: I'll definitely say find something you're passionate about. It's not easy work. So you know, don't do something that you think is marketable. Do something that you think is exciting, something that can hold your attention for longer than you think it will. I would also say that you should build a community. It's not a it's not a great, well supported environment to work in. 00;41;40;29 - 00;41;58;22 Ursula Liang So, you know, don't feel competitive with other filmmakers. In the case of down a dark stairwell, there were other people filming that story, and we ended up, you know, we tried to be nice to each other in the field and could exchange numbers and help each other out. Although, you know, you feel a lot of anxiety, this person is going to finish their film or their film is going to be better than ours. 00;41;58;23 - 00;42;19;29 Ursula Liang Ultimately, we ended up using footage from other filmmakers who were on the scene because they didn't end up needing it, or they had already used it, or they wanted the money, whatever. It was just having a good relationship with them with. We were able to absorb some incredible footage that we didn't have. So, you know, I think rather than feeling competitive about things, really try to be good to the people around you. 00;42;19;29 - 00;42;27;17 Ursula Liang It all. It's a small community at a certain point, and it all ultimately helps you if you can build good relationships. 00;42;27;22 - 00;42;45;08 J.R. Jamison Jamison: I love that idea of sharing because being a creative, it can sometimes feel competitive. As you were saying, what if somebody else is writing? You know, I'm a writer where somebody else is writing this idea and I just don't know yet, and our book is going to be competing. And might their book sell better than mine? And what does that mean? 00;42;45;08 - 00;43;13;26 J.R. Jamison And will I get another contract? These are things that do run through our minds as creative creatives, but I love the way that you framed that, because it really is about connections and collaboration and what we call in the writing world, building literary citizenship. So this idea that no another writer or another creative is not my competition. We should be working together to tell these deep stories about our own cultures, about our own experiences through our art. 00;43;13;26 - 00;43;19;09 J.R. Jamison And that is in a place of competition. That's a face, a place of collaboration. 00;43;19;12 - 00;43;40;19 Ursula Liang Liang: I mean, I think you make a good point. Also, deep stories. I mean, the stories when you're taking a film that takes too long to make, like all of my films, you have to have something that's deep enough that it still resonates, you know, a couple of years later and still has some legs beyond that. And, and one of the things I always advise, especially Asian American creators, is to do the research to know what else is out there because you want to be additive, right? 00;43;40;21 - 00;44;12;18 Ursula Liang So if there's another person working in your space, make sure you know what they're doing, because there are too many people doing sort of the 101 storytelling and it's not adding on. So if you if you watch other people's work and don't think that your idea is brilliant and genius and never been told before because almost every story has been told before, make sure that you know some of the stories that have been told before, the people that came before you honor them and then build on them, because that's how your film will always be better than the quote unquote competition and relevant six months down the road or five years down the road or 00;44;12;18 - 00;44;14;12 Ursula Liang ten years down the road. 00;44;14;14 - 00;44;36;29 J.R. Jamison Jamison: I think often, too, when I'm in conversations with people who are aspiring writers or storytellers or filmmakers and really, they're already that thing. They need to just do the jump right to do that. But then when they learn how long it takes. So you mentioned, you know, it took seven years to do one of your films. You know, one of my books that I wrote took me four years to write. 00;44;36;29 - 00;44;56;15 J.R. Jamison And people get shocked by that, right? They're like, what? How did you how did you keep going? What advice do you have for that kind of stick to that it takes to to keep pushing through what it feels like. Is the funding going to come through? Are the right people going to get on the team to make this really happen in those dark moments? 00;44;56;17 - 00;45;00;13 J.R. Jamison What what advice do you have for creatives to keep going? 00;45;00;15 - 00;45;19;22 Ursula Liang Liang: Self-care. Self-care. Self-care. I mean, I think you never think it's going to be that long. It's like these guys in prison, right? You have to be prepared to live each day, but also live each day for a long time. I think, you know, wake up and do something you enjoy. And also, you know, I probably suffer from, you know, leaning into anxiety too much. 00;45;19;23 - 00;45;35;14 Ursula Liang Like I think that can really kill us if you I think you have to tell yourself that it doesn't need to be perfect. You have to tell yourself that I don't need to do it all today. I can stop at 5:00. I can do that tomorrow. You know, if you probably thought you were going to write your book within a year, ten months, right? 00;45;35;15 - 00;45;53;16 Ursula Liang If you told yourself at the beginning of you're going to write it in four years, you never would have done it. But I think it's, you know, have an actionable list of things you can check off each day. And then, you know, if there's some stuff left, just do it tomorrow. Remember that other things in life are are as important to your creative work as doing the creative work. 00;45;53;17 - 00;46;13;17 Ursula Liang You know, you taking a break and going to eat something, going to spend time with your family, spending time with your friends. Ideas come from that. Like brilliant stuff happens. Like, you know, in the writing process of filmmaking process, a lot of the work doesn't happen when you're like grinding. It actually happens when you're taking a shower or you're taking a run, or you went to go see a beautiful, like, play. 00;46;13;17 - 00;46;42;05 Ursula Liang And something sparked within you at that play. And a lot of that is you can write it off on your taxes. You know, if you're if you're consuming other creative work, you know, and, and entertainment, it's it will spark ideas, you know, when you get to be too anxious or you know, you're feeling a lull and then just take a break, I think, I think I actually I had a really great conversation with now I can't remember the director, but he's sort of like a mumblecore kind of hero. 00;46;42;06 - 00;47;02;02 Ursula Liang He did a film called funny haha, and I met him at a party, a Christmas party back in my hometown one time, just randomly, and never had a longer conversation with him than this five minute conversation we had. But I really respected him as a director, and he basically just said, you know, artists need time to marinate. You know, I had heard he was telling me that he takes time off. 00;47;02;02 - 00;47;19;12 Ursula Liang And I think that to be a creative mind, you need, you need, you need your mind to be flexible and to be relaxed and to be marinated and juicy stuff. So to make the best work, you got to give it time and give yourself time and a little bit of a break. 00;47;19;14 - 00;47;41;15 J.R. Jamison Jamison: And some of that juicy work is watching other people's films, reading other people's work, because ideas do come from that, as you mentioned, of a different way to maybe tell the story or to frame it, or from a cultural context, thinking through our own lenses of how that story might be told from our perspectives and our lived experience. 00;47;41;15 - 00;48;03;27 J.R. Jamison So I always think to myself, to not to think that there aren't stories within stories already out there, because we're all walking stories. And as you mentioned before, all stories have pretty much been told. They're just kind of retold in different ways and different framing in different creative ways. What projects are you working on now? Anything you can share with our listeners? 00;48;04;00 - 00;48;27;09 Ursula Liang Liang: I'm sort of a heavy development stage, but I am developing something around a person who is trying to sort of rewrite the the mental health diagnostics for Asian Americans. They don't seem to really compute and accurately gauge depression and PTSD and anxiety within the Asian American community. So I'm trying to figure out a way to translate that research into something filmic. 00;48;27;11 - 00;48;47;11 Ursula Liang And then I'm really interested now that I have a child in doing something, you know, a documentary that could be for kids. You know, I'm not really trying to let my kid watch TV right now. He's only two and a half and some change, and but he loves videos and I know that's what they all watch. So, you know, part of me is excited to try to explore something in that space. 00;48;47;11 - 00;49;03;28 Ursula Liang And then I've been dreaming about writing a kid's book that's sort of a bit of a documentary story set in in Chinatown. I've moved to Oakland Chinatown recently, so those are some things that I'm working on, as well as a big feature that I'm hoping to pitch, but it's too early to talk about that one. 00;49;03;29 - 00;49;34;07 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Yeah, I'm excited to see all of those projects unfold, especially the kids book and maybe video or documentary around that too. That seems really innovative and something that is necessary, and I'm excited to see in a different kind of way. One last question that I want to pick your brain around is a question that I'm asking all of my guests, the season that's based around the heart of the work we do at the Facing Project on understanding and creating a more empathetic world. 00;49;34;10 - 00;49;46;00 J.R. Jamison I'd love your perspective on how do we create a more empathetic world in a time when it feels like listening and understanding the lives of others has decreased? 00;49;46;02 - 00;49;53;11 Ursula Liang Liang: Well, that's a very big question. You're trying to have us all, all of the interviewees, solve the problem for different. 00;49;53;12 - 00;50;06;19 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Creative backgrounds and perspectives, and I really do. As a creative, I wholeheartedly believe as creatives we can change the world. There are storytelling, so I'd love to hear from other creatives. What do you think about that? 00;50;06;20 - 00;50;25;11 Ursula Liang Liang: Well, it's really hard to be a creative in a time where, you know, political world is really in turmoil and things are like life or death. So you wake up in the day and you're like, am I doing, you know, is this kid's documentary really? Does it really have any place in this world? Is it really going to do anything? 00;50;25;11 - 00;50;48;11 Ursula Liang But I have to keep reminding myself that cultural work is really important. When I was working at the New York Times, I was working in the style magazine and was showing fashion and travel and food, and part of me was like, should I be doing investigative work? Does this matter? And then I realized that my friends who are like on the front lines, who are doing the real heavy lifting and social justice, were reading my stuff. 00;50;48;13 - 00;51;03;22 Ursula Liang You know, they need a mental break. Like I said, they need to marinate in something else. They need to have some relief from their stress. And so all the cultural work we're doing is important. And I think I think we have to think a little bit more collaboratively, like all of our work added up together is changing a cultural narrative. 00;51;03;28 - 00;51;26;06 Ursula Liang And so where sometimes I want to quit and not do it, it's important. It's important because what happens when you don't put these sort of alternative cultural narratives forward that are more positive and more real and more just than the other ones take over. So I think we have to have strength and continue to do our work. I also think you have to lay it plain. 00;51;26;06 - 00;52;01;06 Ursula Liang I think people often in my space where they're trying to do work that does make a difference. I think they fail in making as much a difference as they could, because they are. They are leading the audience too much. So I think what's really important is to lay it plain and to show points of view that are, you know, that are different in your film because when you when you give somebody that experience watching a film, if they can see both points of view in the film or multiple points of view within the film, and then come out with a take the journey through the film and then come out with an opinion about what 00;52;01;06 - 00;52;32;17 Ursula Liang should be done. Usually their experience is leads in an opinion that's stronger. If you're feeding them something and telling them to do something, you're just feeding them. If they're learning while they're watching and they're having a mental and emotional journey, they're going to be much more have much more conviction when they finish the film. So I think it's important not to hide the things we disagree with, but to show them because and show them with enough context and enough counterpoint that people can come to their own conclusions because it's it's it has different weight. 00;52;32;17 - 00;52;35;06 Ursula Liang I think, when we do that. 00;52;35;09 - 00;52;41;11 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Ursula Liang, filmmaker, producer, journalist. Thank you for joining me on The Facing Project. 00;52;41;13 - 00;52;45;00 Ursula Liang Liang: Thank you so much for having me. It was a great conversation. 00;52;45;02 - 00;53;12;03 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Two strikes is out now at PBS frontline. More at pbs.org. More about Ursula Leone and her other work at Noncompliant Films. Florida's two strikes law is not unique. In fact, all 50 US states have some type of repeat felony offender laws in various forms. The first enacted in West Virginia in 1943. In the latest in 2012, in Idaho, Iowa, and Massachusetts. 00;53;12;11 - 00;53;21;07 J.R. Jamison Indiana's law was put into place in 1994. 00;53;21;09 - 00;53;31;17 J.R. Jamison Many thanks once again to Earth Slowly for joining me on today's show. To listen to past episodes of this program, visit Indiana Public Radio. 00;53;31;20 - 00;53;57;08 J.R. Jamison Or find us on your favorite podcast app. Or just ask for Smart Speaker to play The Facing Project on NPR. To continue the conversation about this episode, find us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at The Facing Project. The facing project is recorded at Indiana Public Radio at Ball State University and Beautiful and Wonderful, Muncie, Indiana, and is produced by the amazing producer and audio engineer extraordinaire, Sean Ashcraft. 00;53;57;09 - 00;54;08;22 J.R. Jamison The show is distributed nationally through PR. I'm your host, J.R. Jamison. And until next time, I wish you the courage to share your own story in the empathy to listen to others.