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[Michelle Kinsey]: This week on Pop of Culture, bringing history to life. A new play focuses on the overlooked story of Oliver Sipple. And the pop team is what you might call exercise averse.

What a new book explains how just a little motion can help your health. That's coming up.

[Luke Jones] Support for Pop of Culture comes from Stallings Wealth Management and from you. You may have heard about large gifts to NPR. Those donations are important, but they don't bring back the funding to IPR. Your support pays for the programs you rely on, especially local programs like this one, and the people like me who create them. Pop of culture exists for you and because of you. Give today at indianapublicradio.org.

[Jen Blackmer] From Indiana Public Radio, this is Pop of Culture. 

[Jen] I'm Jen Blackmer.

[Michelle] And I'm Michelle Kinsey.

Coming up, why you should probably be listening to this show while walking. There's a new book on the benefits of daily movement. But first, we have a fresh look into history. 

[Jen] In 1975, U. S. Marine Oliver Sipple saved President Gerald Ford from an assassination attempt. Initially hailed as a hero, when details of Oliver's personal life came to light, the story moved on without him.

That story is now being told in a new play Arlington or your forgotten American hero, which will have its world premiere with American Lives Theater in Indianapolis, starting May 21. We have three members of the team with us today to discuss the show. First of all, Andrew Cramer, the playwright for Arlington or your forgotten American hero, Hi, Andrew. 

[Andrew Cramer] Hi, Jen. Thanks so much for having us today.

Chris Saunders, who's the founding artistic director of American Lives Theater and is also the director of this production, Hi, Chris.

[Chris Saunders] Hello, hello.

And Chris and Andrew are veterans of Pop of Culture. You might remember them from season one. We also have Dan Nicoletta joining the conversation today. Dan is a photographer, photojournalist, and a gay rights activist. And he was friends and a personal friends with and a personal photographer for Harvey Milk. He has firsthand knowledge that directly informed this play and its development. Hi, Dan, welcome.

[Dan Nicoletta] Hi, Jen.

It's a pleasure to be here.

We're very happy that all three of you could join us today. And, Andrew, I'm going to start with you as the playwright. Tell us a little bit about this play, and what inspired you to turn this story into a play.

[Andrew Cramer] Yeah, absolutely.

It's one of those stories. So I've lived with... Dan might chuckle because he's lived with it his longer life than I have. But I've lived with Oliver, who I will refer to as Billy during the interview as he was known to his friends. I've lived with Billy Sipple's story now for coming up on ten years, encountered it on a podcast while driving on the highway.

And as I listened to the story of Billy Sipple unfold, I had to pull my car over, and I had to park on the side of the highway so that I could mercilessly weep at the revealing of events that surrounded our friend Billy. And so it was a type of story that I heard and could literally not stop thinking about. I would pitch it to family members. I would pitch it to friends. I would pitch it to theaters. Anyone I knew, I'd be like, "Do you guys know the story of Oliver Sipple?".

And sadly, no one really did. And so that really told me that there was a heart there that I needed to introduce to people. [Jen] Yeah, absolutely. And it's funny how things just occur to us. Oftentimes as storytellers will hear something, and we'll be like, "Why don't more people know about this?" Particularly given that Billy's life literally intersected with President Gerald Ford.

[Andrew] Yeah, absolutely. I mean, not only Gerald Ford, but I mean Patty Hurst and Harvey Milk. And I mean, I could make a list of, you know, San Francisco and the Bay Area in the 70s and 80s that was just this pot boiling of politics and art and music and theater and,

Billy was there at the center of it, and, you know, it's funny you say it's crazy that we don't know this story. And I think part of Billy's story is intentional we don't know his story. I think institutionally and culturally and as a country, I really propose that it is intentional by some powers that be it's intentional that we don't know Billy's story. [Jen] And this is because he was a gay man. [Andrew] He was outed, essentially as a gay man. Yes, he was also.

[Jen] So he was outed by this story?

[Andrew] He was... to the press... in effect. He was originally from Detroit and comes from a large religious family, escaped, as I think he would say, to the Bay area after a few other cities, ended up in San Francisco, where he felt by his own words that he felt like he could live openly as a gay man in the gay community, away from his conservative family. And, yes, two- time marine served in Vietnam.

Was injured, came back with a lot of demons, and so wanted to live a quiet life and happen to save the president's life from an assassination attempt, which really ruined his chance at a quiet life, right? [Jen] Yeah. Yeah. That's incredible. And again, I mean, hearing this for the first time, it's almost like, you know, Where were, where were these facts during this time? So you came up with this idea for a play. Did you write it, or did you find some support first to say, Yeah, we would be interested in helping you do this?

[Andrew] It's a great question, and I have to directly throw that over to Chris as the artistic director of American Live Theater and, you know, my working colleague. I pitched the story to him, and I was like, Chris, this is a story that I think people need to know. And I'm shook that people don't know it. I'll let him speak for himself, but his reaction was one that I think we both shared in terms of the weight of Billy's story. [Jen] Yeah, Chris, what did you think when you heard this?

[Chris Saunders] I had a similar reaction to what everyone is saying. It is there are so many juicy parts, like, from a human standpoint, from my personal beliefs. And also, honestly, just from kind of a salacious gossipy standpoint. And there was so much to cling to in the story that I was kind of just shocked that it hadn't gotten more air at least in, like, the past ten, 15 years. So that was my first reaction. But given the mission of the theater company, which I founded, so it's kind of like what I'm interested, you know? Then it did seem a natural, no questions asked fit for us to tell the story.

[Jen] Right. And so you and Andrew began sort of plotting pun intended to develop a play about this? [Chris] Yes, and I wanted to provide him with all the opportunities to develop it in the best possible way that he could, because as you know, Jen, I mean, writing can be a lonely thing. And if he wanted work with actors, designers, whatever would help him realize this story, I wanted him to have it. So we were able to do a pretty extensive development process with this. [Jen} Well, that's excellent. So how, Andrew, how did you meet Dan?

[Andrew] I was researching. I was just consuming every little bit of media about 1975 and beyond and San Francisco and this time. And I was watching the Times of Harvey Milk, the documentary, which is an incredible documentary. And Dan is mentioned in the documentary. And I saw in the documentary that he was quite a young, handsome, little spry guy in that documentary. And I did the math.

You know, I mean, that's the thing that I keep reminding myself. This is 50 years ago only, right? When we talk about history, it's easy to forget how right around the corner that was. And so I did a little bit of digging thanks to the Intranet, and I found that Dan was still alive, thriving, creating art, and being brilliant. And so I reached out to him, and I was just like, Hey, listen, did you know Billy? And he's like, Oh, yeah, I knew Billy. And so we just started a conversation, and he's been a gracious gracious supporter since.

[Jen] That's excellent.

And, Dan, what did you think you when you were contacted by a playwright wanting to tell the story?

[Dan Nicoletti] Well, you know, I was friends with Bill Sipple and so anything I can do to honor the memory of my late friend, we didn't spend a lot of time together, but we had one of those sort of things that you find in the homosexual community, which is it's instantaneous. And he was such a dear man that, yes, of course, we need to tell a story.

I'm kind of notorious as somebody who survived AIDS and ended up one of the point people for Milk's legacy. And then the broader narrative of the LGBT journey, the civil rights journey of that community of my community.

And so, you know, I've worked on theater a lot. I mean, I also was a theater crafts person from a young age. So it just is such a great fit to be able to use that art form or various films that I've worked on in order to advance history and kind of bring it to a new generation. [Jen] Yeah. And so, Andrew, what was your first conversation with Dan like? What did you talk about? What were some of the things that you remember from those first moments?

[Andrew] Well, I'm sure Dan probably immediately had to take a nap after a conversation because I was just like, so eager to know everything. Mom, one of the things that I think is really interesting that, you know, Dan and Chris and I talk a lot about is this sort of notion of queer erasure and, like, the story of Billy not being known by folks. I joked earlier sort of sadly about it being intentional, and it's interesting when you're trying to dramatize history, especially when you like, Dan does know someone who knew someone that you're writing about.

This person said this, this person said that. It's just a lot of comparing and contrasting sources, right? And so in the spirit of dramatizing Billy's story, what was important to me is this is a way to introduce people to Billy's story and a way in my little way to give him, I think, a peaceful resting place. For a while in his life, he was unable to rest because of this story. And so I immediately just wanted to know from Dan the personal details about

Billy and about Milk, who's also a very prominent character in the play. You know, what's something that he can tell me that I has not written about in a book? And Dan was lovely and shared photos and stories of that time that not many people have seen or not many people have heard. And so that kind of personal knowledge direct from a friend that knew your subject is irreplaceable. [Jen] Absolutely, absolutely. And plus, the added benefit of Dan being a photographer, I think, adds so much to the world building that you do as a playwright.

[Andrew] Oh, and I can't even speak highly enough. I hope everyone listening to the story goes and Googles Dan's work. It's really quite startling. I was used indivisibly on the creation of the Milk movie with Sean Penn, which, you know, won all the awards. Dan was right on set, represented in the movie by an actor, as well. Yeah, his work is incredible. And I think having his artistic sensibility, along with his queer sensibility and his historian sensibility, we were just really lucky to have him as a gift as a part of this process.

[Jen] Yeah. So, talk to me about your work with Harvey Milk. You were his personal photographer. What does that entail? And what are some of the moments that stand out to you about your time with Harvey?

[Dan] Well, I wasn't his personal photographer. I think a lot of people characterized me that way because I was, you know, in proximity for a number of years and did document his ascent, essentially. I helped get him elected. I registered voters. I did that kind of thing. And I took pictures all throughout that. And so I had, like, a three year body of work of that critical moment in his story. And then after his partner, Scott Smith died,

who was really kind of the keeper of the flame up to that point. Scott died in the early 90s, I believe. And because we had been doing work with a small group of people, both preserving and disseminating Harvey's story, the torch was passed to me in that moment. So whereas, as a photographer, I was able to be the silent sort of hovercraft

I ended up thrust into a position of having to actually tell the story and have my own opinion about it. [Jen] Right. And there's a tremendous amount of artistry that's involved in that as well as you are sharing those important moments with us. Chris, where are you in your process right now? Now, obviously, you have started rehearsals and you have the show that is opening May 21. And what should our listeners know about what it's like working on a new play?

[Chris} In my experience, every new play is different and playwrights are very different with how they want to work on their plays. In this case,

Andrew and I knew that the story telling needed to happen in a theatrical way that expanded beyond our own abilities at the table. And what I mean is neither Andrew nor I are designers, and we knew that if we got designers input, it would influence the writing to some extent. And we brought designers in strategically two thirds into those pre-rehearsal workshops, and they provided some wonderful ideas about how we could make this story be told in a way physically from the stage.

That we wouldn't have necessarily thought of those options. So it was kind of it was a highly collaborative one with, you know, the head of the table being Andrew, of course. But a lot of people's input went into this. [Jen] Yeah, so you're making changes as you go, and I know Andrew will be in rehearsal with you as well, responding to not only what the designers are giving to the process, but also the actors and pretty much everybody in the room.

[Chris] Yes, yes. And just in fact, earlier today, we talked on the phone about changes and how many changes he was making based upon last night. And we even had to come up with, do we print the pages, or do we not print pages? You know, and you just have to have these kind of, like, tedious conversations that you don't even imagine until you get into it. And you're imagining writers writing on their scripts, but then you're ding them new scripts and you print a whole script, and then you're just having a paper discussion. [Jen] Oh, boy. I know. And you just feel so bad because you love trees, right?

[Chris] Yes, exactly. Exactly.

[Jen] What's an example...

Can you give us an example of a change that has occurred?

[Chris] Yes, yes, yes. So, Andrew wrote in the script that it was very important to him that the story begin and end in Oliver's apartment, and so that we begin with the apartment on the stage, but then it becomes different locations, but then we end with it. And so, at some point, it occurred to me that we have six actors and we have one chair. And as a director, I'm like, I don't know what I'm going to do with all these bodies. You know, I wanted levels. And I suggested some kind of scaffolding or something in the back, which, of course, I have since learned that designers are resistant to because everyone associates it with Rent.

[Jen] Yes, of course.

[Chris] Yes, yes, yes. And they're like, I don't want to do Rent. But what he created, and I don't want to give too much away, but, like, we have these long pillars on the set. Would you Is that a fair word, Andrew? Would you call it a pillar panel pill?

[Andrew] Absolutely, yeah.

[Chris] Okay. And so our set designer, Devon Cheff he kind of gave me these ladders, but they weren't exactly the ladders that I imagined. But this beautiful thing happened where he

kind of informed me that in concert with a lighting designer, that we could have people ascend these ladders onto a platform within this panel, and then we could light them within there. And so I could achieve the levels that I wanted, but in a way that

far superseded, you know, my basic idea of how to do that of adding more chairs or adding a ladder or something.

[Jen] Oh, right.

That's a perfect example of the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, right? You get minds together, and they can do some incredible things. [Jen] Yes. Andrew, talk to me about your focus in bringing history to the stage, right? We've talked about why this is an important story. It's obviously been lost to history, but what do you want audiences to get from it?

[Andrew] It's a great question. I think about if I had learned about Oliver's story, if I had been introduced to Billy's story in high school, if during the time when we were covering the 70s and I was taught a unit on Billy saving the president and what happened to him afterwards, my entire journey as a gay man would have been different.

The level of representation and processing emotions that go along with being closeted or fear of coming out or being seen as useful Billy's story encompasses all of that. He's such a complicated, amazing person. He's a Marine, and he was injured during war, and he's an out gay man, and he fled from home, and he was friends with Harvey Milk, and he saved the president. It's just so colorful, a man and so lovely a man. I didn't know that people like that existed as Americans for real.

Until I was an adult, you know? And that's really ponderous, right? Think about that for a minute.

[Jen] Yeah. It very much complicates the straightforward narrative that we're all told, right? And anytime I encounter a story from history that challenges me or changes me, I think about the big sense of, you know, human beings living their lives regardless of the time.

[Andfew] Yes, absolutely. And, you know, Chris jokingly had said during one of our collaboration meetings where he's like, If America loves anything more than the rise of a new hero, they love that hero's fall even more. And it's just so interesting to think about in the context of the show, and I don't want to get into that with in terms of spoilers and all that. [Jen] Right. Dan, what do you hope people take away from this play? [Dan] You know, I somehow got to download even just as recently as this morning that what our country does to veterans is not

a nice thing. And so I'm hoping that somehow that will be some of the takeaway that this was a person who was dealing with severe trauma of having had a military training, and then, you know, was additionally mistreated by the media and the legal system and was truly a survivor, no matter what he chose for himself personally. And that's every man's story. And also, you know,

it does some explaining to know that he was a veteran. So I like that it's called Arlington, that it talks about his dream of being buried in Arlington, and it's ironically opening on the anniversary of the White Knight Riots, which was the civil unrest that happened right after the verdict was delivered of Harvey Milk's killer. Mm hm. It's gonna be poignant. I'm completely sure of that. [Jen] Yeah, absolutely. Chris, what about you?

[Chris] Well,I think that right now, in this country, there's so many things I could say, but I will limit it to this. There's a lot of talk about right and wrong and who is doing the right thing and how they're doing it. And we're all part of that conversation in some way. But I guess with Oliver's story, the thing that's so poignant to me is that people intentionally or unintentionally, both, I think, tried to bring him in to their agenda, and it damaged the human inside. And so I just one thing of the many things I want people to take away is turbulent times, they call for bold things, but they also call for sensitivity and just being a human to one another. And I think that that's very present in the trajectory of this story.

Yeah, that's an important thing for us now very much, so. 
[Jen] Well, gentlemen, I cannot thank you enough for joining us today. Our conversation with Dan Nicoletta, photographer, photojournalist and gay rights activist, Andrew Cramer, playwright and literary director at American Lives Theater, and Chris Saunders, founding artistic director of American Lives Theater. We've been talking about Arlington or Your Forgotten American Hero, a new play written by Andrew, which premieres at American Lives Theater in Indianapolis beginning May 21. Thanks to the three of you.

[All] Thank you so much. Thank you so much, Jen. [Luke Jones] And just a note, American Live Theater has produced Jen's work, including in the current season. Okay, Jen, do the out. [Jen] You're listening to Pop of Culture from IPR.

[Jen] If you listen to Pop of Culture on your phone or another device, you might want to turn this one up. Manoush Zomorodi is the host of NPR's Ted Radio Hour and the author of a moving new book entitled Body Electric The Hidden Health Costs of the Digital Age and the New Science to reclaim your well being. Manuosh, welcome to Pop of Culture.

[Manoush] It's so great to be here, Jen. Thank you for having me. [Jen] I'm excited about the book, and the Body Electric Project started in 2023. It was a collaboration between you and Dr. Keith Diaz.  Yeah, it resulted in what became known as the Body Electric challenge. So can you explain that challenge for our listeners who might not be familiar with it?

[Manoush] Okay, so I'm going to start with the personal challenge, which was that I felt exhausted every day, Jen. Like, a lot of people I talked to that I would finish the day. I would close my laptop. I would feel like I had just enough energy to, like, crawl over to the couch and scroll on my phone or watch some Netflix. And I was kind of tired of feeling tired, and I couldn't understand if I was working on a screen all day, what was happening that was draining my energy. You know, I'd heard, like all of us, that sitting is the new smoking, but I couldn't understand what it was.

Um, actually, that was happening in my body and what the screens had to do with it. So I was in the midst of wondering about all that when, actually, I heard on Morning Edition, a report done about Dr. Keith Diaz. So he is a physiologist at Columbia University Medical Center, who has sort of dedicated his life to figuring out what is the minimum amount of movement that the human body needs so that we don't die an early death because we are spending so much time sitting.

He had found in his lab that 5 minutes of gentle movement, we are talking, not burpies or sprints strolling. That was the ticket. It had outsized benefits. It slashed people's blood sugar. I lowered their blood pressure. It made them able to concentrate again, and it improved their mood and energy. And so I was like, Well, that sounds incredible. Why aren't we all doing this? So we put out the call, he and I, to public radio listeners, maybe, some people who are listening right now and. We're

we're going to, you know, throw around some science here, join this global clinical trial. Let's see if we can get people moving what the effects are on your life and how you succeed or maybe fail. We didn't know what was going to happen. So it turns out that of the people who committed to taking the movement breaks, they could do it either 5 minutes, every half hour, every hour or every 2 hours.

82% of those who decided to really stick with it. They did. They made it through to the end of the two week trial. 80% of those people liked taking the breaks. We found on average a lessening of fatigue by 25%. People felt like they were able to concentrate again. They felt like their mood stayed better. They weren't as exhausted. They had energy to walk the dog and make dinner and be with their families and their friends in the evenings. It was a real game changer for people. [Jen] Yeah, and so many people participated. And that's really incredible.

And so the body electric challenge exists as a podcast that you can listen to and I have. And why a book? What do you hope the book does that maybe the podcast doesn't, [Manoush] So we had the sort of high level data at the end of the clinical trial. But really what I've spent the last couple of years doing is going through, you know, we had 23,000 people sending us stories and, you know, telling us why they couldn't stick with the movement brakes or what they did to make it work. So I just wanted to

that's a lot of people. That's a lot of a lot of stories. So I just had such a great time going through and seeing, like, what did college students do that made it work for them? How about people who worked in an office? What if you worked remotely? What if you were retired? And what I ended up doing was putting it into three sort of buckets. One is, you know, young people from little kids all the way on up until your 20s when your brain is still changing.

Then information workers, people who really their tool is their brain and their ability to think straight. And then older adults who are thinking more about longevity and maintaining their cognitive reserves, as well as their physical health and sort of the best practices for each of those groups. [Jen] Right. Now, you mentioned stories, and stories, I think, are key because what you've got is a bunch of science. And so what is the relationship, in your view, between science and storytelling?

[Manoush] Well, it's never simple, is it, right? Like, we can say like 25%, less fatigue on average, but we are all special snowflakes. Each person is I used to think, like, No, we're not. But actually, we really are. Each person is up against their own what they're up against all day. Like, I have teens and elderly parents. That's one of the reasons why I'm on screens much of the time. In addition to work, people, of course, have different genetic backgrounds. They have different physical abilities. So I'll give you one example, Dana.

She was 42 when she had a stroke, actually, and she did not know what was going on in her life. Turns out she had a genetic illness that had built up in her arteries, and she had been trying to walk the dog for an hour every morning, eat better, and nothing was working when she heard about the study. She ended up with the support of her doctor doing these movement breaks, and it just kick started something for her. She her cholesterol levels went down. I just texted with her last week. She's off all of her meds.

Blood sugars in good shape. She's off of insulin as well. She ended up really taking her diet more seriously, her sleep more seriously. She has this treadmill in her office that she gets on and takes movement breaks. And now, actually, she's training to be a health coach. She works in HR for a big hotel company, and now she's going to be one of their people who helps the employees get more movement and wellness into their lives. So I think, you know, we're all on our own journey, right? We all are up against our own demons, but we all do want to feel good. And I think, especially in this day and age, just a little bit more joy and optimism, right? Like, that's the minimum.

[Jen] Absolutely. And it's not these movement breaks are 5 minutes, right? We do them often during the day, but they're only 5 minutes. And I think I'm always fascinated by people who are like, 5 minutes really isn't that long. [Manoush] And I think, you know, some people might be like, Oh, 5 minutes. But I think that was one of the other things that we saw is that people who took a beat after they took a break and they thought, you know, how do I feel compared to when I start? Do I feel like I can think again? Do I feel like I can focus? Did I actually come up with a good idea when I took my walk?

And there are biological reasons why you get oxygenation from stimulating your leg muscles. Our leg muscles are also crucial for taking in the glucose out of our bloodstream. There are sort of this mind body connection. They are not separate. The mind and the body work together. And so people who sort of took a beat noticed the changes,

and change their mindset, right? They started to think, Oh, I get to take a break instead of, uh, I have to take a break. Exactly. It made the rewards were there to the point that bringing movement back in their life was not seen as, like, a chore or something to check off their list. It was, I want to be in the world because that is part of being human. [Jen] Yeah. One of the surprising aspects I read about is the change in eyesight, specifically, right? And going outside changes your focus, right? You can focus on the long distance, and that actually has physical effects on your eyes.

[Manoush] Yeah, I had no idea that our eyes are actually continue to grow into our late 20s and our early 30s. So if you are a young person, or you have kids in your life, get them off screens, not just, you know, don't shame them, but what you want to do is get outside and look at the horizon. The more we tell our eyes, Okay, you need to look at something close. That is what is leading levels of nearsightedness in young people, even in children to skyrocket. We need kids to get outside, tell our eyes, you still need to look into the distance. Go for a walk after dinner, look for birds. That is one of the best

can possibly do with young people. If you're already nearsighted, like me, well, tough luck, but on the other hand, we are starting to see that perhaps serotonin gets released. When light hits the back of our retina, it has to be sunlight. Those who took their movement breaks outside, they saw extra levels of positivity. So it's about our eyesight. It's about our hearing top to toe. We need to be humans out in the world, despite the fact that innovation and technology is making our lives so much more efficient that we can do more and more, more and more. It doesn't mean it's necessarily high quality.

Absolutely. Manoush, thank you so much for your time today. What a great conversation. Manoush Zomorodi is the author of Body Electric: The Hidden Health Costs of the Digital Age and New Science to Reclaim Your Well Being. It's out now. You can also hear her Sunday afternoons as the host of the Ted Radio Hour. Thanks a lot, Manoush.

[Manoush] This was so fun. Loved it.

[Michelle Kinsey] Well, now that we've heard that, don't forget you can listen to Pop of Culture anytime with the pop podcast. Find us on YouTube, Apple podcast Spotify or at Indianapublicradio.org.

[Jen] This is Pop of Culture. I'm Jen Blackmer. [Michelle] And I'm Michelle Kinsey. The Indiana Peony Festival is this Saturday, May 16. We thought this would be a good opportunity to listen back to our interview with Kelly McVey. She's a co-founder of the event. Her title is now CEO of the festival, and she spoke to Kara DuQuette in 2025.

[Kelly McVey] I grew peonies with my sisters, maybe 15 to 20 years ago now and fell in love with the flower. And we sold them at farmers' markets, and I saw how many people and specifically Hoosiers fell in love with the flower or not fell in love, but they had so many memories about their, you know, loved ones growing up and their grandma, grandpa, mother. And there was just so much love for the flower, and I thought, I can't believe we haven't celebrated this. I didn't know at the time it was our state flower.

So educating people that and letting them know, like, there's thousands of varieties, and I just thought to myself, we really need to celebrate this. And so I put together a presentation and carried it around with me for probably ten years, gave it to different people and said, Hey, what do you think about this? You know, we have the

the Indy 500 that happens about the same time, and the flowers are blooming. Why don't we really capitalize on this? So we finally, about five years ago, got it to happen.

[Kara DuQuette] Oh, that's wonderful.

I must admit I'm one of those Hoosiers who really grew up with beautiful peonies in their yard and remember how they smell and seeing the ants crawling all over them. Could you you said there are thousands of varieties. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

[Kelly] Yeah. So, you know, people think there's pink, white and red, and, you know, my goal has been to get people to know, Oh, I've got a coral charm in my yard or I've got a Sarah Bernhardt, and they're all so different. So, you know, and this is just kind of a brief overview of how they're different. But you can have these full doubles that look like huge roses.

Or you can have these singles that look more like poppies and everything in between. And then you have ones that we call bombs that kind of have petals on the outside, and then you have stamens on the inside that kind of poof out. And they also now breed the tree peony with a regular herbaceous peony, and you get what you call an ito peony. And those are beautiful, as well. So, I mean,

and now they have colors and yellows and corals and pinks and reds and whites. But there are just so many different varieties, and our goal is to have as many varieties in Hamilton County as possible so people can come and see, you know, hopefully hundreds and then thousands of varieties. [Kara] Wow, well, can you go into a little more detail about the herbaceous versus the tree peony?

[Kelly] Yeah. You know, and I will say I'm not a gardening expert, you know, and now I'm becoming a peony expert. But herbaceous, they die back to the ground, so you cut them back to the ground every year, and then they grow from the ground every year. And that's primarily what you see around here.

But there are also tree peonies, and they bloom earlier, and they're a slightly bigger shrub that you don't cut back because they don't really last in a vase. They're not like a regular herbaceous peony, but they feel a little bit more oriental. But, man, they are stunning and they're the first ones to bloom, you know? So if you start to see ponies bloom, the very first ones that you'll see are probably the tree peonies.

[Kara] Wow, thank you for that. How many varieties do you have in Hamilton County then? [Kelly] We probably have now. I would say, close to 50 to 100 types. I mean,

you know, nobody's asked me that, but we try to curate new types every year, but you have to, you know, you have to order them in bulk quantities, so we can't order like 100 of this variety this year, 100 of this variety. But I will say, where the festival started is what we call Seminary Park, and there are actually probably 30 different varieties right there in that park.

But I would say we probably have over 100 now that I really think about it. So you will see a huge different variety of them at the festival. [Kara] Well, besides seeing all these beautiful peonies, which sounds amazing, what else can I do at the Peony festival?

[Kelly] Oh, gosh.

The first thing that you can do is we this year, we have 20 different floral teams that are going to be decorating Seminary Park and big floral displays. So it's a great place to just go see the different types of peonies and see these beautiful floral displays done by these local floral artists.

We also have all different types of vendors. This year, we have 150 vendors, some of them being floral, some of them being art. And the amount of peony art that you will see, the amount of peony products from t shirts to mugs to embroidery. It's all just stunning. So you have this beautiful, you know, display of peony throughout the festival. We have great food. We're leaning into our Hoosier roots with tenderloins and the sugar cream pie and all that great stuff. We have a lot of good food. 

There'll be music and then as you go into town, it's kind of like it is one big festival, but we have two parts. We have the festival and the festival vendors, and now we've grown it to over probably seven blocks of, you know, because we just had to expand. Every year, it's just, you know, more and more people come. But downtown, we have what we call our brunch in Blooms, which is a brunch and retail crawl. So all of the businesses, we have 60 businesses downtown that participate, and they all have peony products from peony painted furniture to their windows are painted in peony. They we also have the alleys activated with music and peony inspired decor, and restaurants will be serving brunch and cocktails. 

And so it is a huge celebration of peony, not only at the festival, but as you walk into downtown Noblesville, and they butt up to each other. You will, you know, it's just a great a great day of everything peony. If you like peonies, you got to come.

[Kara] Yes, it sounds amazing. I like that you were talking about the different scents and all the colors. And when you say you activate the alleys, so it's seven blocks of pure festival. Is that what I'm hearing?

[Kelly] Yep, yep.

[Kara] Nice. Well, where would I get tickets to this festival? [Kelly] Actually, the festival itself is open to the public. So you just need to go to Indianapeonyfestival.com to learn more. It's 10-4 o'clock. We have shuttles that can shovel you in from different parking lots surrounding, you know, Noblesville. But there's different parking garages downtown Noblesville, too, you can park in or side streets. [Kara] Well, I need to ask you, what's your favorite part of the festival or has it changed over time?

[Kelly] You know, um, this is something I didn't mention earlier, and it's probably the most simple part of the festival, and it's what I like most is we have a Peony Stem contest, and people can bring the peonies from their gardens into the festival. You bring one Peony stem, and we showcase them all day 10-2. And you can, you know, then festival goers can come see, you know, just tons of different varieties because they're seeing them from everybody's gardens and old world types. And then we have judges that vote on the Best Peony, and I will say that is my very favorite part of the festival.

[Michelle] That was part of our interview with Kelly McVey, co founder and now CEO of the Indiana Peony Festival. This year's festival is Saturday, May 16. Now it's time for the other events happening in East Central Indiana. You still have some time to check out the in focus exhibition at the Anderson Museum of Art. The exhibit featuring the photography of several area artists is on display through the end of the month. [Jen] Michelle, would you like some Wensleydale?

Wallace and Grommit. Get cracking. Open Saturday May 16. I can't do the accent. At Minnetrista Museum and Gardens, designed for children ages three through nine and their families, this immersive exhibition is full of fun and problem solving. You can interact with clever contraptions, explore colorful environments, and engage with hands on learning in English and Spanish, and maybe take a trip to the moon.

[Michelle] Yeah, you're kind of a fan. Amazing [Jen] A little bit. [Michelle] Yeah, I got that vibe. Art in Bloom is May 16 and 17th at the David Owsley Museum of Art. This is an annual celebration of DOMA featuring floral interpretations of museum pieces created by regional floral designers. A public preview party reception is Friday May 15 from 5:00 to 7:00 P.M. bsu.edu/doma for more info.

Muncie Ballet will present Oz the Ballet at 2:00 P.M. Saturday, May 16 at Cornerstone Center for the Arts. Oz the ballet is filled with dancing, a rainbow of costumes, and, of course, joyful children. The show is designed for children, families, and the young at heart somewhere over the rainbow. Yes. Muncieballet.org has all the details. [Michelle] Muncie Civics Youth Education Encore Program will present letters to Sala in the Casazza Family Studio Theater May 15 through the 17th.

Adapted from the book Salas Gift by Anne Kirschner. Letters to Sala by Arlene Hutton is based on the true story of a young girl's survival during wartime, Germany.

[Jen] And going way back in history. Way back. The Passion of Joan of Arc is the Public Domain Theater feature on Wednesday, May 20 at Cornerstone Center for the Arts. The movie begins at 6:30 P.M. And is followed by a discussion. This 1928 silent film chronicles the trial of Joan of Arc through stark, intimate close ups and groundbreaking visual storytelling. If you have an event historical or otherwise, tell us all about it. Go to indianapublicadio.org/contact Then click Pop of Culture.

[Luke] Support for Pop of culture comes from Stallings Wealth Management and from you. You may have heard about large gifts to NPR. Those donations are important, but they don't bring back the funding to IPR. Your support pays for the programs you rely on, especially local programs like this one, and the people like me who create them. Pop of culture exists for you and because of you. Give today at Indianapublicradio.org.

[Michelle] And that's our show. Our director of audio operations is Sean Ashcraft. [Jen] This week was produced by Luke Jones, who was just voluntold to become captain of the Pop Walking team. We had production assistant from Andrew Montevon. Our audio fellow is Maya Doss. Our show was hosted by me, Jen Blackmer and me, Michelle Kinsey. Pop of Culture is a production from IPR on the campus of Ball State University.