00;00;00;11 - 00;00;31;00 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Racism has existed for millennia, but as laws and time have passed, it can now show up in covert ways. I'm J.R. Jamison. Today on the Facing Project, we'll hear from three women: one Black, one Muslim, and one Native American, and what their lives are like in a mid-size Midwestern community. And we sit down with Yvonne Thompson, director of the Human Rights Commission, to talk about what everyday people can do to combat discrimination. [Music] 00;00;31;02 - 00;00;56;28 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Hi, friends. Today is a lonely day. It's only me here with you as Kelsey is away researching his fourth book. But I promise to keep this episode just as lively as always. In reality, I'm not alone. I'm joined by four strong women: three storytellers who have faced racism, plus Yvonne Thompson, who works each day to advocate for those who have nowhere else to turn when discrimination rears its ugly head. 00;00;56;29 - 00;01;20;09 J.R. Jamison But before we get there, I want to share exciting news from the Facing Project press. You might recall that my memoir, “Hillbilly Queer,” was released in May. Its publication has helped to launch the 2023 Empathy Prize for nonfiction. The Empathy Prize seeks a book length work of nonfiction that embodies our mission of creating a more understanding and empathetic world through stories that inspire action. 00;01;20;12 - 00;01;54;10 J.R. Jamison We are especially interested in works that focus on connecting across differences, current events, and lifting up underrepresented voices, such as those not often heard around race, ethnicity, class, geography, culture, religion, spirituality, sexual orientation, gender identity, and expression and ability. Submissions are now open. More information at FacingProject.com/TheEmpathyPrizeForNonfiction. Now back to the stories. On today's episode, we explore covert racism and how it's showing up in big and small ways. 00;01;54;11 - 00;02;05;02 J.R. Jamison The three stories you'll hear are all for my hometown of Muncie, Indiana, and were a part of the Facing Racism in Muncie project that debuted in 2016. 00;02;05;05 - 00;02;39;08 Chandra Ford Ford: Question marks fill the space between us. What separates us? Black, white, yellow, brown? Are you for me or are you against me? When I was young, I asked to understand. “Daddy, why do white men have to stay on the front porch when they come by our house?” “Daughter, why do black men have to enter through the back door 00;02;39;10 - 00;03;19;07 Chandra Ford of white houses?” Question marks separate us. “Daddy, why do they want you to call white men ‘Mister?’” “Daughter, for the same reason white men call me boy.” The question marks indeed separate us. When daddy explained that the world is black and white, I saw the question mark as a shepherd's crook, keeping me safe. In high school, a white college girl offered to help me research my homework. 00;03;19;09 - 00;03;52;14 Chandra Ford When she came to pick me up, the question mark hooked my jacket, pulling me back. Where do I sit? In the front like her friend, or in the back like her maid? The question mark became the hook upon which I hung all interactions. In college, I walked home alone after my nightclass. A white boy said it was dangerous for me to walk alone and offered to walk me home. 00;03;52;17 - 00;04;28;17 Chandra Ford The question mark appeared. Am I safer with him or alone against what lurks in the dark? Isn't he what lurks in the dark? The darkness seemed a safer option. Daddy's shepherd's crook continued to guide me, to separate us. Black. White. Yellow. Brown. Sometimes the question mark of racism is pulled taut, forming a line as straight as a mouth full of content. 00;04;28;20 - 00;05;07;13 Chandra Ford The exclamation point forms rows. The rows form columns. The columns form a wall. You don't belong. It's easier, safer to let that hook hold on to us. After time, our skin just grows over it. The question mark becomes part of us. It's in our doubtful looks, raised eyebrows and lowered voices. Ripping that hook out? It's painful. Risky. 00;05;07;16 - 00;05;39;21 Chandra Ford In college, I ran for a short term student government office. The first quarter I lost by eight votes, and I met ten black students who didn't vote. They didn't see the question mark. They knew the answer. Can a black student win? Of course not. The next quarter, I ran for a full term office. A black guy asked, “Why waste your time?” 00;05;39;23 - 00;06;26;10 Chandra Ford But I wouldn't let the hook catch me again. I became the first black elected student government officer. Time passed. My daddy passed. Laws passed. But the question mark lingered. That barbed wire hook must be pulled out, tossed aside, so that we have the freedom to step forward and connect. [Rhythmic acoustic guitar and drum music] 00;06;26;12 - 00;06;55;15 Amy Leffingwell Leffingwell: There are certain topics as a Muslim - as a Muslim woman - that I'm tired of addressing. Conversations about hijab: exhausting. Conversations about whether or not Muslims should apologize for the actions of terrorists who claim to be Muslims: unfair and exhausting. Conversations about whether or not Muslim women are downtrodden and under the thumbs of their husbands: absolutely wrong, and emotionally draining that continually 00;06;55;15 - 00;07;23;11 Amy Leffingwell Muslim women have to explain that, not only are we not downtrodden, we are revered and highly respected by our husbands and families. At the same time, although I am tired of talking about the same issues over and over, I understand the conversations still need to occur, particularly now when potential political leaders say things like, “We need databases for Muslims,” or, “We should exclude Muslims from specific activities.” 00;07;23;13 - 00;07;46;18 Amy Leffingwell So we sometimes roll our eyes when it's just us together. But at the end of the day, we know that we have to continue the dialog, because, in some cases, our lives depend upon it. Yes, talking about hijab can be frustrating. I personally don't wear a job on a regular basis because we, as Muslims, know that it's not accepted by many non-Muslims. 00;07;46;20 - 00;08;07;06 Amy Leffingwell If I put on hijab, I worry that maybe I risk violent attitudes or negative responses from total strangers in the grocery store or the mall. Some people feel it's their right to comment on our attire, which is amazing to me. They don't get that it's rude. It's the equivalent of me asking a Christian, “Why are you wearing that cross?” 00;08;07;09 - 00;08;26;16 Amy Leffingwell That's just not something I or any Muslim would do. Until I wore hijab and felt the eyes on me, I didn't understand what other Muslim women meant when they would say, “They’re staring at me in public when I wear hijab.” Before I wore hijab, I would think, well, maybe you misinterpreted the stares, or maybe they really aren't staring. 00;08;26;22 - 00;08;50;08 Amy Leffingwell Or maybe it's just more curiosity than animosity. But once I became that one person in the room who was doing something different, like wearing hijab, I felt the fear that other Muslim women speak about. And I come to find that fear is a constant in the lives of Muslims, whether it's the way we dress or just the ordeal of traveling, we can't get away from fear. 00;08;50;10 - 00;09;11;18 Amy Leffingwell The last time my family and I crossed the border, we were visiting my husband's brother in Canada. We drove across the border on the day we stopped fasting for Ramadan. We had breakfast, prayers and then we packed up. However, when we got to the border preparing to cross over into Detroit, we were stopped for no less than 4 to 5 hours. 00;09;11;23 - 00;09;37;06 Amy Leffingwell Our car was searched and my husband was taken to the back room. Before going to the back room, the officer put a glove on his hand, and I instantly- I knew it was about to happen. My husband didn't see the officer put the glove on his hand. My children didn't understand what was happening. My husband went into the room with the officer, and oh, I felt sick to my stomach. When he came out, 00;09;37;07 - 00;10;00;07 Amy Leffingwell my husband was deathly pale from the humiliation he had just endured. My son instantly started questioning, “Baba, what happened to you? What they do to you?” And I was like, “Hush! Baba doesn't want to talk about what just happened to him in there.” I just knew it would be too humiliating. And then to have the officer, after hours of detaining us, say, “Well, there was a misunderstanding. 00;10;00;07 - 00;10;23;28 Amy Leffingwell You can go ahead and go.” We hadn't eaten during this whole ordeal. This was the first day of the month, during daylight hours, that we could eat during the day. And so we were sitting there for all of those hours with our kids, after having told them earlier that day that, “Oh, today's a holiday celebration!” Yet we were allowed no food, no drinks and no bathroom visits without permission. 00;10;24;00 - 00;10;41;07 Amy Leffingwell We had told the kids that once we crossed the border, we'd get lunch in Detroit, but there we were, 4 to 5 hours later, very hungry, very tired, and the last thing we wanted to do was stop. We wanted to get as far away from the border as we could. So the kids were in the back saying, “We want to eat, we want to eat.” 00;10;41;07 - 00;11;03;20 Amy Leffingwell And we were like, “Sorry guys, we need to get out of here.” We wanted to get the experience as far away from us as we physically could. Since then, my husband has tried to make sure he's clear to fly with airports and customs before he attempted to fly to make sure this doesn't happen again. But of course, we were told there's no guarantee, so we don't fly anywhere together as a family. 00;11;03;25 - 00;11;34;05 Amy Leffingwell If we want to go on vacation, it has to be somewhere we can all get into the car and drive to, because there's no more crossing the border for us, so it limits our ability to visit with his family. I mean, it's tragic, but sadly, it's the new normal for Muslim families. I want my children to live in a place where they can interact with diverse populations of people, whether they be Muslims or someone else, maybe Jewish, Hindu, maybe atheist, maybe gay, Black, Hispanic. 00;11;34;07 - 00;12;07;24 Amy Leffingwell But my children need to be out there interacting with all different types of people, because that's the world that they're going to work and live in in the future. So I say to non-Muslims: we are just like you. We want the same things for ourselves and our families that you want for yours. And that's the freedom to love and live in peace. [Rhythmic acoustic guitar and drum music] 00;12;07;26 - 00;12;34;01 Dr. Melinda Messineo Messineo: Call me No Name Changeling. I was born in the year the Lumbee stood down the Klan in the Battle of Maxton Field. The government placed mixed blood babies with white adoptive families. The children with blond or red hair with blue or green eyes. America's forgotten children. My hair was as red as wild strawberries. My eyes the color of Luna moths. 00;12;34;06 - 00;12;59;07 Dr. Melinda Messineo Even then, my skin was light. In Canada, I carry papers that say I am Métis, but in my country I have no tribe. I'm a split feather. One of the lost birds set apart from the legends of Nanabozho. I never sat in a circle while the grandfather spoke of how Nanabozho dwells among the seraphim of the northern lights on the great island of floating ice. 00;12;59;09 - 00;13;29;23 Dr. Melinda Messineo I am neither Potawatomi nor Ojibwa. Neither Menominee nor Kickapoo. I am the daughter who dreams of feeding her grand-daughters pemmican. I read Roget’s Thesaurus in search of synonyms for the language I cannot speak. I rescue abandoned words and shield them from harm's way. Quid nunc. Gobsmacked. Hear me when I tell you the songs my ancestors bequeathed me remain unsung. 00;13;29;29 - 00;13;56;16 Dr. Melinda Messineo I do not resemble the silver screen image of Sacagawea, but I joined a caravan to Pine Ridge to restore what was stolen. Each day I thanked the spirit leader, whose gift to me was her trust, and the elders who told me to follow my spirit. My husband sought his heritage among his Choctaw roots, like a Hollywood Indian from “Thunderheart” or “Dances with Wolves.” 00;13;56;18 - 00;14;25;12 Dr. Melinda Messineo Black hair, brown eyes and copper skin. Stoic until his final devastation. Our sons danced in Midwestern powwows, grew their blond hair long to hold their mysteries and prayers, were taunted in the high school halls. Others at the powwows complained of wannabes to the BIA. They stripped the feathers from my sons regalia. One son was a drummer. The other a fire keeper. 00;14;25;14 - 00;14;53;13 Dr. Melinda Messineo I taught my sons to live with honor, and they honor their mother. My sons walked away. I cut my hair. Still, I walk in a spirit way. I host a feast for dancers who travel with wolves. I serve squash, maize and beans, the three sisters. We sing for the child of many colors. Practice trills. I wear long skirts. 00;14;53;16 - 00;15;18;22 Dr. Melinda Messineo One summer, 50 people from a Bible camp stood in my lawn to ask if I'd been saved. I ordered a statue of Pan for the front yard. They never returned. I teach college freshmen to celebrate mistakes in their paintings, to see beyond the limits of oil and water. For my 50th birthday, I had a phoenix tattooed the length of my arm. 00;15;18;26 - 00;15;53;18 Dr. Melinda Messineo I dyed my short hair teal to remind myself how to live as a mixed blood in Indiana. How to live in this age without my ancestors songs. I live without a name and without a people. I walk alone in a spirit way. [Chiming, ambient electronic dance music] 00;15;53;21 - 00;16;00;14 J.R. Jamison Jamison: I want to welcome to the show the director of the Muncie Human Rights Commission, Yvonne Thompson. Yvonne, thank you for joining me. 00;16;00;16 - 00;16;02;25 Yvonne Thompson Thompson: Very glad to be here today. 00;16;02;27 - 00;16;30;19 J.R. Jamison Jamison: The Muncie Human Rights Commission was founded in 1964 and exists to ensure that all citizens of Muncie, regardless of race, religion, sex, disability, color or national origin, have an equal opportunity in education, public accommodations, and housing. I want to talk a bit about covert racism. Can you provide a few examples of what this looks like in those three areas of of housing, education, public accommodations? 00;16;30;19 - 00;16;35;03 J.R. Jamison How is how is that showing up today? Covert racism? 00;16;35;06 - 00;17;17;05 Yvonne Thompson Thompson: It's actually showing up with being given two sets of rules, being treated differently. You know, the law may say one thing and you, a person - because of their skin color or because of what they believe, or you know, who they love or any and all of that - may be treated differently by, I always like to say, the powers, the powers that be. 00;17;17;08 - 00;17;22;13 Yvonne Thompson It's, it's a different 00;17;22;16 - 00;17;47;22 Yvonne Thompson case when you have the power to be able to make changes in power- in policy and procedure, law and ordinances. But when people don't know what to do and don't know what their options are, that's not- some people feel power- powerless. 00;17;47;25 - 00;18;04;05 J.R. Jamison Jamison: How do people reach out to you when they feel like perhaps they've been discriminated against in housing or education or public accommodations? Are you the place they stop to to say, “What are my options? Where do we go from here?” 00;18;04;07 - 00;18;28;15 Yvonne Thompson Thompson: Yes. They can talk to our office. We are not legal services, but we have the ability to contact legal services. We have the ability to talk to people about basic legal rights, and talk to people about, 00;18;28;17 - 00;19;05;23 Yvonne Thompson how is your situation? How is your situation playing out and how it may play out if it goes to court? You know, we we tell people about what things they may need if they go to court, what to expect when they go to court. And that's the big thing. A lot of people have, you know, that fear of being in the courtroom, of course, and not feeling like there's anyone there to help them. 00;19;05;28 - 00;19;09;26 J.R. Jamison Jamison: So you're serving in many ways as an advocate? 00;19;09;29 - 00;19;10;17 Yvonne Thompson Thompson: Yes. 00;19;10;18 - 00;19;40;03 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Yeah. I also want to talk about JEDI. And I don't mean Star Wars. [Laughter] When we get- When we, when we talk about this- We joked about this a little earlier off air. You know, there's a bunch going around where people are mixing up the difference between equity and equality. There's also talk about justice. And what I like about JEDI is it helps folks easily remember just justice, equity, diversity and inclusion. 00;19;40;04 - 00;19;44;24 J.R. Jamison You have a poem that you want to share that gets to the heart of this. Do you mind reading that? 00;19;44;25 - 00;19;54;03 Yvonne Thompson Thompson: Yes, I, you know, I never really thought about it being connected to Jedi. [Laughter] 00;19;54;06 - 00;19;55;20 Yvonne Thompson But I learned something today. [Laughing] 00;19;55;21 - 00;19;59;28 J.R. Jamison Jamison: There could be a reimagining of the poem, maybe, after we hear it. [Laughter] 00;20;00;01 - 00;20;36;28 Yvonne Thompson Thompson: Oh my gosh. Well, this poem is something that explains the feelings and the situations of what diversity looks like, what equity looks like, what inclusion looks like, what justice looks like. And so it starts like this. Diversity asks, “Who is in the room?” Equity responds, “Who is trying to get into the room but can't? Whose presence in the room is under constant threat of erasure?” 00;20;37;01 - 00;21;21;25 Yvonne Thompson Inclusion asks, “Have everyone's ideals been heard?” Justice responds, “Whose ideals won't be taken seriously because they aren't in the majority?” Diversity asks, “How many more of” - you can pick a minoritized group - “How many more of that particular group do we need this year than last, than last year?” Equity responds, “What conditions have we created that maintained certain groups as the perpetual majority here?” 00;21;21;28 - 00;22;12;21 Yvonne Thompson Inclusion asks, “Is this environment safe for everyone to feel like they belong?” Justice challenges, “Whose safety is being sacrificed and minimized to allow others to be comfortable maintaining dehumanizing views?” And that's- that was written by Defina-Lazarus Stewart. And I've always found this information to be very specific and, and, and that's, I believe, what our office is trying to help with, people that are not invited to the table when decisions are being made. 00;22;12;24 - 00;22;51;06 Yvonne Thompson You know, why aren't they invited? People that may be affected by a particular ruling or affected by a particular ordinance. Did they have any say so? Did anyone understand that there may be impact in a negative way to that particular group? So, you know, those kinds of things come into play. And, you know, it's, it's, it's fun to, I guess, it's fun right now. 00;22;51;07 - 00;23;21;26 Yvonne Thompson You know, we're all talking inclusion and diversity and all of that. And but to me, that's, you have to take a stand if you want people that haven't been invited to this, to the table. Somebody has to open the door. Somebody has to get a place set at the table for that group to come and, and, and be heard. 00;23;21;28 - 00;23;26;11 Yvonne Thompson And sometimes that, that takes a lot of courage to do that. 00;23;26;11 - 00;23;47;08 J.R. Jamison Jamison: What can everyday people do to support that? You know, so I mean, it's- after hearing the poem, it seems like, yeah, I mean, this makes sense. As an everyday person, I should raise my hand and be asking these questions. But so many people sit back and think, oh, I'm not the right person to ask those questions. 00;23;47;08 - 00;23;56;01 J.R. Jamison What would you say to push back against that and encourage? What would you say to encourage everyday people to become part of this JEDI solution? 00;23;56;02 - 00;24;31;15 Yvonne Thompson Thompson: I would say, what's the right thing to do? And I've seen kids or students stand up and say, you know, that's not the right thing to do for this situation. And we know that students may not have the power, but they definitely have the voice. And thank God for that, because, you know, there was a time you just didn't listen to kids. 00;24;31;15 - 00;25;21;13 Yvonne Thompson You just, just didn't listen to just children. But you know, now we see things happening to impact children especially. Oh especially now. Yeah. Oh my gosh. With the you know wearing the mask for to prevent Covid from getting a person sick, and just, I- it's a lot. It's a lot. But just a person standing up and saying, “Okay, you didn't ask the person that's being affected to be part of this solution. 00;25;21;16 - 00;25;53;10 Yvonne Thompson I may be able to speak up for them, or I may be able to see if I can bring that impacted person or that impacted group into the room.” And again, it takes a lot of courage for someone to do that or some group to do that. And, and I think I've said this before. Just be ready for the pushback because there will be pushback. 00;25;53;16 - 00;26;32;09 Yvonne Thompson But you have to know that it's the right thing to do to help people, to have a voice, to have- help people to be treated fairly and to be treated equally. It’s amazing. I think we've learned so much in the last couple, well, I'd say last three years with just situations dealing with justice and how people have been mistreated. 00;26;32;12 - 00;26;38;02 Yvonne Thompson And I think we've- we're learning. 00;26;38;04 - 00;26;52;00 Yvonne Thompson I see groups that may not have been able to speak up before start to have that voice to speak up now. And that's- it's good. That's very good. 00;26;52;03 - 00;26;56;28 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Yvonne Thompson, director of the Muncie Human Rights Commission, thank you so much for joining me. 00;26;57;00 - 00;27;00;03 Yvonne Thompson Thompson: Thank you sir. I appreciate you. And you know I do. 00;27;00;05 - 00;27;01;02 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Yes, we love you, Yvonne. 00;27;01;02 - 00;27;20;23 Yvonne Thompson Thompson: [Laughter] Love you. [Chiming, ambient electronic dance music] [Theme music] 00;27;20;26 - 00;27;43;06 J.R. Jamison Jamison: I want to thank the late Dr. Jay Zimmerman, Jason Donati, and Dr. Renae Mayes, among others, for their work on organizing the Facing Racism Project. Dr. Maria Williams-Hawkins’ story was written in collaboration with Liz Alezates and was performed by Chandra Ford. Heather Gilvary-Hamad’s story was written in collaboration with Angela Jackson-Brown and was performed by Amy Leffingwell. 00;27;43;12 - 00;28;08;15 J.R. Jamison Christine Satory’s story was written in collaboration with Michael Brockley and was performed by Dr. Melinda Messineo. To listen to past episodes of this program, visit IndianaPublicRadio.org/TheFacingProject. From there, you can subscribe to the podcast where you'll get episodes of the Facing Project delivered to your device each month. Listeners can contribute stories or volunteer to share the stories of others with the Facing Project that may appear on the show. 00;28;08;22 - 00;28;38;16 J.R. Jamison More information at FacingProject.com/InspireAction. To continue the conversation about this episode, find us on Facebook at The Facing Project, and more information on the Empathy Prize mentioned in the beginning of this episode is at FacingProject.com/TheEmpathyPrizeForNonfiction. The Facing Project, is recorded at Indiana Public Radio at Ball State University in beautiful Muncie, Indiana, and is produced by the amazing producer extraordinaire Sean Ashcraft. 00;28;38;23 - 00;28;51;10 J.R. Jamison The show is distributed nationally through PRX. We are your host, Kelsey Timmerman and J.R. Jamison, and until next time, we wish you the courage to share your own story and the empathy to listen to others.