00;00;00;04 - 00;00;29;14 J.R. Jamison Jamison: I'm J.R. Jamison. Today on the Facing Project, I'll explore aging through the stories of those aged 60 to 95, who look back at their careers and accomplishments and discuss times of war and peace, strength and bravery, struggle and tenacity, and the secrets to life and living in the golden years. I'll be joined by Molly Flodder a long time and now retired nonprofit executive and community leader and editor of the book “Life After 60: The Golden Years?” 00;00;29;15 - 00;00;58;06 J.R. Jamison And Dr. Jacquelyn Frank, a gerontologist and research anthropologist who has held academic positions at both public and private institutions and whose work explores aging in place, Alzheimer’s disease and dementia, and aging among incarcerated adults. I'll share four stories from individuals featured in “Life After 60” who are keeping busy in retirement, finding community among old friends, volunteering for meaningful causes, and making music that fits their dharma. 00;00;58;07 - 00;01;04;26 J.R. Jamison Stay with us. [Theme music] 00;01;04;28 - 00;01;36;07 J.R. Jamison Jamison: You're listening to The Facing Project with J.R. Jamison, and today I'll explore aging through the stories of those age 60 to 95, who look back at their careers and accomplishments and discuss times of war and peace, strength and bravery, struggle and tenacity, and the secrets to life and living in the golden years. My guests include Molly Flutter, editor of the book “Life After 60 The Golden Years?,” and Dr. Jacquelyn Frank, leading gerontologist and anthropologist whose research focuses on aging in place. 00;01;36;07 - 00;02;01;24 J.R. Jamison And I'll share four stories from individuals featured in “Life After 60” who are keeping busy in retirement, finding community among old friends, volunteering for meaningful causes, and making music that fits their dharma. I want to welcome to the show one of my guests for today, Molly Flodder, a long time and now retired nonprofit executive and community leader and editor of the book “Life After 60: The Golden Years?” 00;02;01;25 - 00;02;04;01 J.R. Jamison Thank you for joining me on the Facing Project. 00;02;04;02 - 00;02;05;25 Molly Flodder Flodder: Thank you for inviting me. 00;02;05;27 - 00;02;30;29 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Absolutely. We've known each other for a long time now, I think going back to the late aughts or pre-teen era or whatever they call that era, right between, I don't know, 2010 and 2013. You led the first Facing Project, “Facing Poverty,” before it was even the Facing Project. It was a project that you had taken on and led for Teamwork for Quality Living. 00;02;31;01 - 00;02;43;29 J.R. Jamison You come back to this storytelling model now for this new project on aging. What brought you back to this storytelling model, and why was the story on aging in life after 60 important to tell? 00;02;44;01 - 00;03;14;11 Molly Flodder Flodder: Actually, in the ten years between when we did that first project until we started getting into this senior project, I was able to listen to and be a part of a number of Facing Projects, and I realized the power of their capability of getting people to share and to understand each other. And I really believed, especially as I was facing retirement and then subsequently retired, 00;03;14;12 - 00;03;22;05 Molly Flodder I really believe that this might be a good topic in which I could learn something as well as many of my peers could. 00;03;22;08 - 00;03;37;18 J.R. Jamison Jamison: And you've served in the past as a writer - as you talked about on other Facing Projects and organizing other projects in the past - but you were a storyteller on this project as well. What was it like to be a storyteller? How was that different? 00;03;37;23 - 00;03;59;00 Molly Flodder Flodder: It was different in that I was sharing parts of myself that I hadn't really shared very much or very deeply with anyone to speak of. And I, I found out a lot about myself that I didn't even know, even though this was, of course, all very familiar territory for me. 00;03;59;02 - 00;04;06;23 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Was there anything about being a storyteller that felt more vulnerable than being a writer? 00;04;06;25 - 00;04;29;04 Molly Flodder Flodder: Yes, absolutely. I, I felt I was admitting to some facts about myself that might make me sound a little self-centered, and that never makes you feel good to think that others are going to be aware of something about you that maybe isn't as flattering as as you hoped it would be. 00;04;29;07 - 00;04;35;21 J.R. Jamison Jamison: What did you think about the story once you saw the first draft? Did that change? 00;04;35;23 - 00;04;49;23 Molly Flodder Flodder: Yes, I felt much better about it. And the very last sentence of the story is really kind of what sealed the whole thing and made it okay for me to have been vulnerable the way I was. 00;04;49;25 - 00;04;55;03 J.R. Jamison Jamison: What did you learn about yourself through this process? 00;04;55;06 - 00;05;19;16 Molly Flodder Flodder: I learned something I knew but seldom admitted, which was that I have spent most of my working career just working and focusing on work and focusing on goals and what I needed to get done, and that I needed to step back and be who I was in addition to my professional self. 00;05;19;18 - 00;05;45;28 J.R. Jamison Jamison: And I want to talk a little more deeply about that, and we'll hear some of the stories here in a moment, including yours. But I want to talk about the core piece of your story that stuck with me. You read an obituary of a woman whose life consisted mostly of family, but no work outside of the home. You said, and I quote, “There was a time, I hate to admit it, when I might have looked down upon someone with an obituary that didn't include a career. 00;05;45;28 - 00;05;51;15 J.R. Jamison But when I read that ladies’, I felt some longing.” Could you talk more about that moment? 00;05;51;17 - 00;06;16;01 Molly Flodder Flodder: Yes, I realized that, you know, it might be pretty easy to make a list of things that I've done or boards that I've served on. But would there be anyone, even in my family, who would want to make sure people understood the other side of me? And it occurred to me that that might be harder for people to come up with. 00;06;16;04 - 00;06;30;29 Molly Flodder So in the meantime, I have written my own obituary, and it includes some of the professional things that I did, but I've left spaces in it that they can add if they want to. Something else about me and my personality and character. 00;06;31;01 - 00;06;49;04 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Well, thinking about that, so, it's been ten years since you read that obituary that kind of inspired your story in “Life After 60” and also ten years, almost, or coming up on ten years, right, since you've retired. How might your legacy be written differently today? 00;06;49;06 - 00;07;18;23 Molly Flodder Flodder: Well, I think it's kind of important when those of us who are retired start having grandchildren and realizing how much you would miss if you didn't develop a close relationship with those grandchildren. And that has really changed me a lot, has changed how I spend my time, has changed how I feel about the world, how I feel about our children, and how I feel about the importance of leaving a better world for them. 00;07;18;26 - 00;07;46;13 J.R. Jamison Jamison: I love in your story, too, you talk about sitting under a tree, I believe, right, with, with some friends. There was a potluck or a pitch in - depending on what part of the region people listening to this might call those things where everybody brings a dish - and you kind of sat back, and you, kind of, just loved the moment, right? This moment of relaxation, this moment of fellowship that was happening among your friends. 00;07;46;13 - 00;08;05;29 J.R. Jamison And I have to say, I felt a bit envious because someone who still is in my career, I really wish I could find those moments to slow down. What advice might you have for someone who's not yet at retirement about finding those moments of joy now that you are on the other side? 00;08;06;01 - 00;08;34;26 Molly Flodder Flodder: I think it's so important, and I have every year as one of my goals that I need to nurture friendships. And there- that definitely helped me develop friendships, long life friendships, with those women who shared that opportunity every week. But that is so important. And now that I'm a senior in full bloom, I really try hard every month to think of someone 00;08;34;26 - 00;08;58;13 Molly Flodder I want to make sure that I visit with and talk with that month, because there may not be another opportunity for me to do that. And I have lots of acquaintances and I hope I run across many of them. But there are a few, a few dozen who I really need to connect with again, and that has been a huge blessing for me. 00;08;58;15 - 00;09;31;09 J.R. Jamison Jamison: I think there are so many lessons from this book for young people too. I think a misconception when people might read the title, “Life After 60: The Golden Years?” Right? Kind of with a question mark. I think people may say, “Oh, this book is not for me because I'm not yet 60 or not yet at retirement age.” But as I was reading these stories, right, myself, I kept reflecting on, as I mentioned, a bit of envy where I thought, I wish I could, you know, have the time to do this, but also it's why can't I make the time to do that? 00;09;31;09 - 00;09;53;14 J.R. Jamison So I think there's a lesson in slowing down in there, too, for generations where it feels like our life always has to be sped up. And I also, you know, to your point about making time for friends or family, I have aging parents, as do all of my friends my age, and tomorrow is not promised to anyone or anyone in our family. 00;09;53;14 - 00;10;04;01 J.R. Jamison So it's also a nice reminder too to take that time to make those calls. Or say, I can step away from my email to go see this play with my mom, right? 00;10;04;03 - 00;10;31;21 Molly Flodder Flodder: I think that's really important. And one thing we insisted upon doing in the book was talking with someone who had experienced their parents aging issues, such as dementia and Alzheimer's. And we have one very powerful story where we were able to see all that through the eyes of the person who was sharing that story with us, and I believe that may be the one from which I learned the most. 00;10;31;24 - 00;10;33;17 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Yeah. What did you learn? 00;10;33;18 - 00;10;57;19 Molly Flodder Flodder: Well, I learned some of her techniques in dealing with her mother. And when her mother was confused and seeing people that weren't there, the way she learned to handle it. And I have a couple of friends now who are going through some huge issues with memory loss and dementia, and I think it's really helped me be more patient and understand how, how to talk with them and deal with them. 00;10;57;22 - 00;11;28;08 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Yeah, yeah. All of these stories are powerful, and there are 24 in the book, and the youngest storyteller is 60, the oldest storyteller is 95. And I was really amazed by her story. She's still driving, [laughs] right? And I think sometimes we think somebody 95, I hear people say like, “They shouldn’t be driving.” But she seems to be thriving while she's driving and doing her, her own errands and, and, and being about town. 00;11;28;11 - 00;11;35;24 J.R. Jamison What have you heard from some of the storytellers about going through this experience and or what this project meant to them? 00;11;35;29 - 00;12;18;07 Molly Flodder Flodder: Well, the individual who was only 60 at the time and was talking about how he wanted to live as a quote unquote “senior” found that it was a powerful roadmap for him to begin thinking about how to get from the age that he was. He's getting closer to 65 now, and how much he appreciated the opportunity to make himself outline that and to share it, that it was, it was a good way for him to begin to sort of follow the path that he always thought he would with better directions. 00;12;18;09 - 00;12;30;24 J.R. Jamison Jamison: And I know some partners on the project, right, the senior center, LifeStream, others. Have you heard how they're maybe using the stories with any of their clients? 00;12;31;00 - 00;13;03;02 Molly Flodder Flodder: I'm not certain about that exactly. I do know we had a story on a Vietnam veteran and that the topic of involving veterans in their work became more and more important to them. And they are, in fact, now hosting a breakfast for veterans. They have both men and women who come and assemble, I think we're talking 30 to 50 every month that come for that breakfast and share experiences and share what they're doing with each other. 00;13;03;02 - 00;13;05;27 Molly Flodder And I know that that's been very powerful for them. 00;13;05;28 - 00;13;29;17 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Wow. That's that's a true testament to story becoming action, right? What have you learned about yourself interacting with these stories, but primarily about the aging process that maybe you thought you knew, but something changed after interacting with all of these stories? 00;13;29;20 - 00;14;10;24 Molly Flodder Flodder: Well, I think one thing that was really interesting to me is that there were people who were sharing their stories who felt that the person writing about them needed to know their whole life story, and to talk about it from day one. And while that's interesting and important, I think was much more powerful for me to see the people who were telling their stories to sort of pinpoint one particular issue or one time in their life, which stood out to them as a very powerful moment that really changed them. 00;14;10;24 - 00;14;20;13 Molly Flodder I think those were the stories that were, that were most interesting and powerful and thought provoking. 00;14;20;15 - 00;14;26;03 J.R. Jamison Jamison: What is your biggest hope for someone who picks up this book? 00;14;26;06 - 00;15;00;03 Molly Flodder Flodder: My biggest hope would be that the people who pick up this book and look at it will realize that even if they may not know any of the people in the book because they're not around here locally, will realize that every senior, every person walking the earth, has a story to tell, and that the importance of those stories are sort of guidelines for our lives as we go through. 00;15;00;05 - 00;15;27;02 Molly Flodder Many people have survived some really awful stuff and come through on the other side. Others have learned to deal with something like a disease that's going to be chronic and never going to go away. But I think some of those solutions are so important to helping us all live our lives, especially as we get older and our bodies break down a little bit, and we're not able to accomplish all the things we did in the past. 00;15;27;05 - 00;15;38;15 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Molly Flodder, long time and now retired nonprofit executive and community leader and editor of the book “Life After 60: The Golden Years?,” thank you for joining me today on The Facing Project. 00;15;38;15 - 00;15;40;03 Molly Flodder Flodder: Thank you so much. 00;15;40;05 - 00;15;53;21 J.R. Jamison Jamison: “Life After 60: The Golden Years?” is out now everywhere books are borrowed and sold. Up next, we'll hear four stories from the project. Stay with us. [Steady, positive fingerstyle guitar music] 00;15;53;23 - 00;16;24;13 Beth Nahre Nahre: “Discovering the Person I’ve Always Been.” Molly Flodder’s story as told to Kelsey Timmerman, performed by Beth Nahre. The day I announced my retirement, I read the obituaries. I remember this one lady. It seemed like she never worked outside the home. It listed what the grandkids called her and how she loved to make quilts. It was obvious she meant so much to so many and had made a difference in their lives. 00;16;24;19 - 00;16;51;05 Beth Nahre I thought about what my obituary might say. “Molly Flodder sure did do a lot of crap.” When I gave my official retirement notice at the Teamwork for Quality Living board meeting, I felt good. People said, “Congratulations, you've earned it!” You know, those kind of things. But when it finally hit me, I was terrified. I thought, what am I going to do? 00;16;51;08 - 00;17;09;28 Beth Nahre Who am I without this work? I had sort of gotten into a pattern where I just didn't make time for my friends anymore. They would ask me, “Do you want to go to lunch with us on such and such a day?” “Oh no,” I'd say, “I'll be getting ready for a meeting that day.” They quit asking me, you know. 00;17;09;29 - 00;17;32;13 Beth Nahre So, that was one thing that crossed my mind. What am I going to do with my time? I started working when I was 15, giving piano lessons. I was married to Mr. Wrong before I married Mr. Right. When I got married, one of the things I really wanted to do was get away from home and start my own life. 00;17;32;13 - 00;18;00;29 Beth Nahre And so I went to college and graduated in three years. I had four part time jobs. I kicked it into high gear, so I was able to accomplish as much as possible. Gotta move. Gotta do, gotta get done. The first part of my career, I was a teacher. I got involved in all kinds of extracurriculars. I was the yearbook and literary magazine advisor. 00;18;01;01 - 00;18;26;02 Beth Nahre I directed a 90-voice community folk choir of teenagers, too. And then I ended up at Ball Corporation for 11 years, and that was intense in a different way. There was a lot of traveling. I edited the company magazine. And if you're going to write about the plastics plant in Greenville, South Carolina, you got to go down and interview the people. 00;18;26;04 - 00;18;50;27 Beth Nahre That was a very busy life. By this time I was married to Mark, aka Mr. Right, and we had Maggie when I was 35. I was trying to juggle family and work. I later became the vice president of marketing and public relations at Ball Hospital. But when I went into health care, I didn't know much about health care. 00;18;50;27 - 00;19;20;25 Beth Nahre And so I had a really steep learning curve and spent lots and lots of hours trying to figure that out. A hospital is a city that never sleeps. If you're meeting with physicians, you might be in an 8 a.m. meeting and it's your third meeting of the day. I had an average of 23 meetings a week. So normal things that moms do to get their kids off to school, I couldn't do. 00;19;20;27 - 00;19;49;15 Beth Nahre I think everyone knew I worked really, really hard, and that if I was going to be responsible for a project or a committee or a program, I would make sure it got done. I was dependable. After the hospital, I was the first executive director of Teamwork for Quality Living, an organization that came alongside people living in poverty. We got started in the mid-90s. 00;19;49;17 - 00;20;19;01 Beth Nahre I did that for 18 1/2 years. That was the most exciting, wonderful thing. It didn't even feel like work. I felt like I was making a difference in the community. I was dreading retirement. I was looking forward to it as far as more time and a chance to travel and be with family, but dreading the change in my life and whether or not I'd be able to embrace it, live it, enjoy it. 00;20;19;04 - 00;20;42;08 Beth Nahre I felt like if you were to line up two lists - one of all my strengths in my working life and one of my strengths is a wife, mother, friend, and so on - the latter would be a much shorter list. There was a time, I hate to admit it, but I might have looked down upon someone with an obituary that didn't include a career. 00;20;42;10 - 00;21;08;11 Beth Nahre But when I read that ladies’, I felt some longing. It took a good year to settle into retirement. I actually toyed with the idea of putting a volunteer resume together and sending it out to places. I've cautioned so many friends who are retiring against doing anything like that, because you don't have a perspective yet to be able to know how much you're going to be able to take on. 00;21;08;14 - 00;21;32;07 Beth Nahre So fortunately, I didn't go through with that idea. I finally came to the conclusion that, for me, there's a formula: I can take on two big things where I'm at a central part of whatever is working, whatever is going on; and 2 or 3 little things where, if I missed a meeting, nobody would think anything. And that works for me. 00;21;32;10 - 00;21;50;17 Beth Nahre I don't want to go back to work, but I do believe that this community is important, and it's important to be supportive of young leaders. And I didn't feel that way for a while. I kind of felt like, you know, they were just a bunch of young kids trying to make sure the old people were stepping out the door. 00;21;50;20 - 00;22;12;13 Beth Nahre That's not true at all. If you get to know people and sometimes share something that worked when you were in the workforce, they really appreciate it. I have this year's calendar right here with my goals on it. It's a short list. “Play ukulele.” I'm a musician, so I could pick it up really quickly if I just worked on it. 00;22;12;15 - 00;22;34;04 Beth Nahre My grandkids are going to be in high school someday. I'm going to want to sing songs with them now while they still want to do it. “Read for enjoyment.” I don't do that. I was an English major. I love reading. It's my favorite thing in the whole wide world, but I don't do it. Too many household things and lots of community stuff. Right. 00;22;34;10 - 00;22;55;16 Beth Nahre I had such a creative imagination when I was a kid. I remember sitting on my bed with my dolls and pretending it was the Mayflower, giving them names and identities. I could play like that for hours. I don't sit on the bed to play with dolls anymore, but I certainly have the luxury of time to go into my imagination. 00;22;55;19 - 00;23;21;19 Beth Nahre That's why I wish I were making myself write again. “Compose music.” I haven't done that much for years. Did little of that with church music several years ago and really hoped to do more. “Eat healthier. Move my body.” I've only started those in the last year due to learning I'm a diabetic, but the last one I have worked on: “Nurture friendships.” 00;23;21;21 - 00;23;45;16 Beth Nahre I take the time and drop everything to go do something with friends. I really enjoy hanging out for a full day and not having to put on makeup, and not having to go around on a schedule. I'm psyched to be able to take a nap in the recliner. When I was eight, we took a trip to Branson and there was nothing there then except the small, beautiful Ozarks. 00;23;45;18 - 00;24;11;11 Beth Nahre I enjoyed looking out over the beauty of God's creation. I've never enjoyed our home as much as I've enjoyed it now. I go outside. I look at the river and appreciate nature. I slow down. Recently, I was sitting outside in a friend's backyard under a huge tree. It's a beautiful spot. We were all just sitting and talking and laughing and having a good time. 00;24;11;14 - 00;24;38;17 Beth Nahre We meet weekly. I brought one of the dishes for our potluck lunch, and they loved it. We were visiting and laughing. We care about each other. I want to say something profound here, but my occasionally fuzzy head keeps me from doing very well at that. Retirement was a very strange journey of trying to figure out who I was and getting to know myself. 00;24;38;20 - 00;25;05;03 Beth Nahre After retirement, I think I've entered the person I've always been. Retirement has taught me to accept and love where I am. As for my obituary, I think it would be kinder and gentler now. By the way, my four grandkids, they call me “Momo.” [Steady, positive fingerstyle guitar music] 00;25;05;05 - 00;25;13;24 Jacket Thor [Jacket Thor singing] Oh. Oh. 00;25;13;27 - 00;25;50;06 Jeff Pearson Pearson: “Where I'm Supposed To Be.” John Charles Peterson's story as told to Jeffrey Owen Pearson, performed by Jeffrey Owen Pearson. Here I am rambling away, and you letting me tell my stories. That could be the biggest mistake ever. Actually, I've written a book already, “The True Adventures of Captain Wa-Wah,” where I relate my early days as a keyboard player in a band from Iowa that played gigs from Chicago to Denver. 00;25;50;09 - 00;26;27;20 Jeff Pearson Then, my transition to becoming a family practice doctor in Muncie, Indiana. I have no intention of retiring soon because I like what I do. What keeps me going? I've never known. Not since I started 72 years ago. First there was the musician, then the doctor. What I do in medicine and music and everything else I do is a part of my dharma: doing that which I should be doing to be happy and fulfilled. 00;26;27;28 - 00;26;36;22 Jeff Pearson I've been fortunate enough through the years to do things that are in keeping with my dharma. 00;26;36;25 - 00;27;12;15 Jeff Pearson I've always been the one that was a little different. Long hair to my waist in those early years, anti-war, anti-Vietnam and anti-corporate. I said to my med school, “You need someone like me here.” And they said, “Maybe so.” I'm not part of the local health conglomerate. I see fewer patients than other doctors. That way, I get to spend more time with my patients who are people and not numbers. 00;27;12;17 - 00;27;50;14 Jeff Pearson The only day I didn't have a full caseload was my first day in practice, and I attract patients who are well informed. I still play music around town, and between clients I compose music in my head. I can't turn it off. Before I die, I have 40 or 50 songs I want to record. This year, I release an album with five original songs and five written by two iconic Hoosier composers, Cole Porter and Hoagy Carmichael. 00;27;50;16 - 00;28;26;04 Jeff Pearson For a number of years, I owned Doc's Music Hall in downtown Muncie. When we closed the club, the documentarian Robert Mugge asked, “Are you still a musician first?” I'll tell you what I told him. I think they're the same Dharma, medicine and music. There's the same synaptic processing, synergistic patterning, and creative mathematics; parts of the same thing. There was a young keyboard player I taught. Despite his failing year after year in math, 00;28;26;04 - 00;29;01;19 Jeff Pearson he was a masterful mathematician on the keyboard. I taught him how mathematical patterns correlate with chords, tricks of chord progressions that give emotional experiences. These were all things I figured out mathematically. Suspended chords, minors and majors. Combinations that trigger different emotions. For instance, the music of Brahms had a prominent low end. The tones themselves vibrate much like celestial bodies. 00;29;01;22 - 00;29;28;11 Jeff Pearson My medicine? After nearly 50 years of practice, I have all sorts of stories to tell. That's my next book. For instance, there's the case of a VA patient with a loss of feeling from the waist down. I was a third year med student in neurology rotation, and I was the one chosen to present the case to one of the world's authorities in the field. 00;29;28;14 - 00;30;06;04 Jeff Pearson Intrigued, he took us all and went over to the VA to see the patient himself. After thoroughly examining the man, he said, “I have no idea what's wrong.” The lesson? Admit what we don't know, what we can't explain. I found that by studying ancient [Vedic] writings, I could learn time tested wisdom, the understanding of scholars from thousands of years ago now coincides with discoveries of quantum physicists who have explained the unified field 00;30;06;05 - 00;30;46;15 Jeff Pearson Einstein was searching for. We are basically all different frequencies, and medicine confined healing at the fundamental source of our existence. I had a patient with ITP, a disease where the body forms antibodies against its own blood cells. Basically the body at war with itself. The regimen we tried based on Vedic knowledge was successful. And she later chaired a symposium on the disease and asked me to represent an alternative medical viewpoint. 00;30;46;17 - 00;31;18;27 Jeff Pearson I asked a Vedic scholar and physician for advice. After much discussion, he noted that auto immune issues are all indicators of unexpressed anger. “Remember,” he told me, “the most important thing is healing. Practice unconditional forgiveness.” I really feel fortunate. My wife Vicki is wonderful. The kids and grandkids are great and this Christmas was a joy spending time with them. 00;31;18;28 - 00;31;50;04 Jeff Pearson It was exhausting but fun. It was filled with some really good and insightful conversations too. I have great friends, great patients. Lethay Pegues plays drums with me, and at some point in every gig, about halfway through, something happens that's unexpected and magical. I look at Lethay and say, “You know, something?” And he says, “I know, doc, it doesn't get better than this.” 00;31;50;05 - 00;32;18;20 Jeff Pearson And that's the running joke. Whether there's two people or 100 in the audience, it doesn't matter. “You know something, Lethay? It doesn't get better than this.” [Shimmering synthesizer music] 00;32;18;22 - 00;32;59;20 Melinda Melinda: “I'm Busy Retiring, Please Leave a Message.” M. Kay Stickle’s story as told to Julie Davis, performed by Melinda. 80% of General Motors lost railcars ended up in Muncie, Indiana. It's true. And believe it or not, I did too. In high school, I worked for General Motors in Pontiac, Michigan so I could earn money to go to school. I worked for the parts engineering department, and in an era that made no use of computers, was assigned the task of finding all the railcars loaded with General Motors parts that had become lost in transit. Railcars, numbered with chalk on their sides, 00;32;59;23 - 00;33;25;15 Melinda in winter in Michigan. Does that sound like a challenging task? Good, because I love those. I took them on not only at General Motors, but in my undergrad work at Eastern Michigan and my graduate work at Michigan State. And when the president at Michigan State asked me to contact John R. Emens about a job at Ball State University, I knew exactly where Muncie was. 00;33;25;17 - 00;33;51;12 Melinda By the time I joined the faculty at Ball State in 1968, I'd already set up 75 model reading clinics across Michigan, promoted education on the ground in dictator-led Nicaragua, and trained African Americans to pass their voter literacy test in Selma, Alabama. As a professor in the field of education, I coached teachers who would go on to invest their lives and students around the nation. 00;33;51;14 - 00;34;17;03 Melinda During my career, I received job offers from several places, including the University of Tennessee, Pittsburgh, and Peabody College. But although I visited each location and considered carefully whether I should move, it was always clear that Muncie was still the place for me to be. I wanted to live in the same city where I taught and invested in that community in meaningful and long term ways. 00;34;17;05 - 00;34;44;16 Melinda I wanted to do what I loved. But I didn't want to wait. The passions and gifts I'd already cultivated could be transplanted into the life of the community where I lived, worked, and worshiped. I wanted to find out where the needs were and begin to address them. When I discovered that Ball Memorial Hospital gave booties and hats to newborns, I contacted them and I showed them my knitting and crochet work that I could offer. 00;34;44;17 - 00;35;12;16 Melinda They were pleased with that, and I began making hats and booties at home in the evenings after my workday at Ball State. Since I was still working, Sandra Hoover, the director of volunteer services, would call me and - say, if there was a bad storm or something - she knew I'd be willing to stop at the hospital on my way home from work and deliver flowers and cards to patients so that the other volunteers, they wouldn't have to drive in that poor weather. 00;35;12;18 - 00;35;33;28 Melinda I planned for early retirement and took that in 2001. I wanted to be able to play, to travel at any time I wanted, but more importantly, I wanted to be busy with a purpose. I knew I needed to be active in later life, just as I had earlier, and I wanted to give in the areas that pulled at my heart. 00;35;34;01 - 00;35;56;19 Melinda Still, I was a bit taken aback when my friend Susan Beatty, who was the head of the newly reorganized emergency department at Ball Memorial, called and asked me to help her. “I don't want to be tied down,” I said. “I retired so I could play.” “Just come help us for a few days,” she pleaded. I protested that I didn't have a jacket, a badge, any training. 00;35;56;20 - 00;36;22;25 Melinda She said, “We'll get you everything you need and train you this afternoon.” And that's when the adventure really began. I fell in love. I fell in love with the emergency department staff and the job they were doing. I loved helping patients feel comfortable and reassured. When they opened the NICU a year or so later, I loved comforting and cuddling the premature babies. 00;36;22;28 - 00;36;48;13 Melinda In my early 50s, I'd been surprised by a diagnosis of ovarian cancer. With the wonderful support of family and friends I faced surgery and chemotherapy, regained my energy and stamina, and I returned to work. I remember those days, how I hadn't known a single person who'd lived through cancer, how I wondered if it'd be worth it to undergo the rigorous treatment. 00;36;48;20 - 00;37;11;19 Melinda Surely there was a way I could put that experience to use now. And there was. The cancer center welcomed me with open arms as a volunteer. And how I loved that too. I pass out warm blankets, make hot chocolate, and I'm simply present as a friend to those going through treatment. Do they need encouragement? I can provide that. 00;37;11;21 - 00;37;32;29 Melinda How about a little bit of gentle teasing fun? Also in my toolkit. And sometimes what they need most is just to tease me when I make a mistake or forget a request. My imperfect surface offers them a chance to help me remember or succeed, so that I may be able to function as more of a peer for them. 00;37;33;01 - 00;38;04;20 Melinda Perhaps that's one of the most surprising things about giving myself to others. Whether I'm volunteering in the hospital, speaking at churches or community groups, training college students, or any of the myriad things that fill my days, my willingness to give of myself returns a full blessing to me. I began singing with Survivor Voices, the chorus founded by Dr. Michael and Laura Williamson, so that I could promote hope and encouragement to cancer patients and their caregivers. 00;38;04;26 - 00;38;27;04 Melinda But actually, I, too, reap the benefits. I started to help Muncie Civic Theater that Laura also leads by promoting season ticket sales and greeting guests as they arrive for performances. But it turned out I always walked away invigorated and refreshed. I grab each new adventure knowing that I may make mistakes, and I'm willing to learn as I go. 00;38;27;05 - 00;38;49;14 Melinda And in the end, I'm filled, I'm energized, and I have the joy of knowing that I get to help build into my community. I've always said I like to be the legs. Don't make me the chair of something. Don't make me president because I like figuring out how to get things done. And recently, I bought a smartphone. [Laughs] My first. 00;38;49;15 - 00;39;26;04 Melinda Now I'm getting things done that way too. I have faith that there are still good tomorrows out there, and I want to take care of myself now. Stay connected now, so I can keep jumping with both feet into all the ways I help build my community, and all the ways that my community helps build me. [Shimmering synthesizer music] 00;39;26;07 - 00;39;52;15 Larry Beck Beck: “A Time for Everything.” James Hilleson’s story as told to Jacquelyn Harris, performed by Larry Beck. Ecclesiastes three, verses one through eight. “There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under heaven. A time to be born, and a time to die. A time to plant, and a time to uproot. A time to weep, and a time to laugh. 00;39;52;18 - 00;40;15;18 Larry Beck A time to be silent, and a time to speak.” This Bible verse is emblematic of how I've lived my life and conducted my ministry. I've often thought that a lot of my awareness of seasons came from my early upbringing on a farm. I was born and raised on a farm with two brothers and three sisters. Farm life required a lot of hands on deck. 00;40;15;24 - 00;40;41;21 Larry Beck It gave me perspective. There was a strong work ethic and steadiness in our family. When I struggled, I knew I needed to work a little harder. There would be deaths of livestock, a time to die. Additionally, we celebrated holidays and birthdays, so we had times of levity, a time to laugh. This perspective of birth and death helped my work in hospital chaplaincy as well. 00;40;41;24 - 00;41;07;06 Larry Beck Hospitalized people would be going through a difficult health care issue which challenged them, but I was able to talk with them and help them through their ill health season. Being hospitalized was only part of their life, and they would move into a new season of living. I also brought the idea of seasons of living into my counseling and being a friend to people as they faced other questions and challenges in life. 00;41;07;08 - 00;41;30;05 Larry Beck How did I get from being an Illinois farm boy to director of chaplain services at Ball Memorial Hospital? I originally thought I'd go into farming, but after two college years, I realized I wasn't the one to take over the family farm. My brother could make good, hard decisions and now runs the farm. I earned a degree in social work and then I went into the seminary. 00;41;30;06 - 00;41;52;03 Larry Beck I don't know what else I could have done other than go into the ministry. Since seminary, I feel my life has been stretched. My sense of spirituality and faith is widened and been challenged to grow. My sense of being a pastor has changed throughout my life. There would be times to plant and times to uproot, which has helped me during job changes. 00;41;52;04 - 00;42;12;00 Larry Beck I've also seen a broader vision of culture and life through my children. I feel God has led me, and as I look back, it has been uplifting and good to feel this was part of God's plan. In my hospital work, when I could spend an extended time with people, I'd ask, “What do you regret? What do you think about?” 00;42;12;01 - 00;42;41;10 Larry Beck They often talked about people, sending good wishes to or expressing concerns about family members. Pets were also major companions and important to people as well. Another characteristic frequently present was a sense of faith and of a higher power. People would say they wondered how other people got along without a faith in God. Often people would have a bigger perspective on their illness, which was a way for people to realize they weren't alone. 00;42;41;14 - 00;43;06;22 Larry Beck It was common for people to express, “If we pray, let's pray for all those who are worse off than me. Pray for people struggling in the world, government,” etc. There was a sense of altruism. Chaplaincy was hard, but almost every day, someone said, “Thank you.” I've recently retired, but I still have the need to find meaning through helping others. 00;43;06;23 - 00;43;31;06 Larry Beck I've signed up to preach as a Sunday morning supply pastor in Marion. I'm also co-chairing an 18-month spiritual education class which meets every other month. This has pushed me to read and prepare exercises on a variety of spiritual topics. In my spare time, I volunteer to work on the Cardinal Greenway, help a friend with farm work, and play pickleball. 00;43;31;09 - 00;43;56;19 Larry Beck Prior to retirement, I was pushed by a schedule. Now I don't have a schedule. I think differently about “have to's” now, such as exercising. In retirement, I need to take care of myself so I can do other things I want to do, which include gardening, woodworking, etc. so I have to maintain my flexibility and strength. Many people have been influential in my life. 00;43;56;20 - 00;44;24;27 Larry Beck My family, including siblings, have been important, and we keep in touch often. My happiest times come with family: camping, times in Oregon, seeing my kids raising their own kids. I treasure those moments when we see our kids being good citizens, being concerned about nature and social issues. It gives me joy to see them being conscientious. Heidi and I feel that we've been fully present as parents. 00;44;25;00 - 00;44;55;14 Larry Beck I think we have flourished wherever we have been. With retirement, I'm glad I don't have to make as many decisions. However, an issue I'm weighing now is, if I live 20 years, what decision should I make now? I realized that in order to use the remaining time wisely, I need to make good financial and health care plans now. I have some childhood regrets about miscues and choices, but nothing of serious consequences. 00;44;55;22 - 00;45;24;11 Larry Beck Earlier I had yens about things I'd like to do, but now I don't think about them much. If I were to give my younger self advice, I would say not to be so fearful. I was a little shy, and I think it held me back some. The future holds some uncertainty for me as I am concerned about Heidi's health and our kids’ welfare, but we are content to stay in this area with the social connections and the resources we have in Muncie. 00;45;24;13 - 00;45;45;06 Larry Beck I know that when helping others in the community and building the family of faith, I'm using some of my gifts, and I want to continue to do so. If I were to pass along a life lesson, especially to my kids, it would be to deepen and broaden their lives. Deepen as in finding and knowing their core, their center. 00;45;45;06 - 00;46;22;05 Larry Beck What gives meaning? My core is in believing in a God who journeys with me. For my kids and others, I encouraged them to find that which holds them, gives them peace and meaning. To broaden is to be open to people of all cultures, faiths, backgrounds, accepting people different from themselves and to love their families is vital. There is a time for everything and a season for every activity under heaven. [Steady, positive fingerstyle guitar music] 00;46;22;08 - 00;46;31;08 Jacket Thor [Jacket Thor singing] Oh. Oh. 00;46;31;11 - 00;46;54;28 J.R. Jamison Jamison: I want to welcome to the show Dr. Jacquelyn Frank, a gerontologist and research anthropologist whose work explores aging in place, Alzheimer's disease and dementia, and aging among incarcerated adults. Dr. Frank has held academic positions at both public and private institutions and recently retired from academia. Dr. Frank, thank you for joining me on the Facing Project. 00;46;55;02 - 00;46;57;27 Dr. Jacquelyn Frank Frank: Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. 00;46;57;28 - 00;47;07;08 J.R. Jamison First, congratulations on your retirement. It feels timely to the conversation that we're having today. What has retirement looked like for you so far? 00;47;07;09 - 00;47;24;13 Dr. Jacquelyn Frank Frank: It's, it's been very interesting. Not quite what I expected, but I'm only four months in, so starting to really think about the next direction and what, what things would give me some- a strong sense of meaning and purpose to, to delve into. 00;47;24;16 - 00;47;49;20 J.R. Jamison Jamison: And you've only been retired for about five months now. So you have, you have a little bit of time to think through that. Well just before this segment, we heard four stories from “Life After 60: The Golden Years?” or the “Facing Aging Project,” as we like to call it internally here at the Facing Project. As a gerontologist and anthropologist, why are stories important to tell, stories on aging? 00;47;49;22 - 00;48;19;14 Dr. Jacquelyn Frank Frank: I think first, as a gerontologist, so many people have such a negative view of, of the aging process, and especially younger people who really might not see anything above the age of 30 or 40 as exciting or interesting. And I think we need to- We need to think more about the full lifespan of an adult, and that there's so much life to be lived. 00;48;19;15 - 00;48;26;20 Dr. Jacquelyn Frank Actually, I was kind of shocked when I saw the, the “After 60.” I'm like, oh my God, that's not an older adult. [Laughter] 00;48;26;22 - 00;49;07;00 Dr. Jacquelyn Frank Because I'm approaching 60, that, that I think that way. But I think as a gerontologist, to get people more excited about the second half or the latter part of life and all it has to offer. And then as an anthropologist, just how important narratives are. People's experiences, especially later in life, having the opportunity to look back across an entire life for someone who's in their 80s or 90s or 100 is so valuable culturally and historically, and even in terms of family connections and building community and bonds. 00;49;07;02 - 00;49;13;19 J.R. Jamison Jamison: What do you think these kind of stories teach us about aging in place? 00;49;13;21 - 00;49;56;20 Dr. Jacquelyn Frank Frank: I think they teach us about resilience. They are often strong stories about determination, but I think they also show us oftentimes the importance of community to people, their, their micro community as well as their, their larger sort of urban or suburban or rural communities and what people's relationships are like to those communities and how important those connections and relationships can be, especially as, you know, thinking about people in their 80s and 90s. 00;49;56;20 - 00;50;19;10 Dr. Jacquelyn Frank And it's often- there's often more of a focus on the losses people are experiencing by that age. And so those bonds and connections to the neighborhood, to the broader community, I think, are really important to document and understand. 00;50;19;12 - 00;50;41;22 J.R. Jamison Jamison: And this term, “aging in place,” it's been a core focus of your research. But for listeners who maybe don't know what that means, right? Or maybe it means something differently than the- if the phrase is taken on the nose, right? Maybe it means something different. Tell me from your perspective and your research, what does aging in place mean? 00;50;41;22 - 00;50;43;16 J.R. Jamison How is it defined? 00;50;43;19 - 00;51;10;10 Dr. Jacquelyn Frank Frank: “Aging in place,” the CDC actually has a definition which relates to staying in your own home where you're, you know, where you've been living for a number of years in, in the most optimal, in the most optimal way possible in terms of supports and being able to do that for as long as you choose to do that, hopefully until, until your last breath. 00;51;10;10 - 00;51;35;19 Dr. Jacquelyn Frank And research shows that up to 90% of people who are over the age of 65, if they had the choice, they would rather stay in their own home and age in place and be where they are until they die. I think part of that is, is the familiarity, the, the support system that, that some of us have if we were to age in place. 00;51;35;19 - 00;52;04;00 Dr. Jacquelyn Frank But it's also relates, I think, to some of our perceptions about assisted living types of options and long term care options in this country, and what those look like and how they don't feel like home. And they don't give us a sense of home and love and support that we would have in our own homes. 00;52;04;02 - 00;52;14;06 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Does aging in place differ depending on demographics, thinking about socioeconomic status or ethnicity and culture? Talk more about this. 00;52;14;07 - 00;53;00;04 Dr. Jacquelyn Frank Frank: Aging in place can definitely differ depending on those things. I think ultimately you would like to think about aging in place as staying in your own residence with all of the supports that you could possibly want or need. So, emotional, financial, technology supports, those things. So someone who is wealthy or upper-middle class, their aging in place experience in their own home may be much more of a choice and will look very different than someone who is very low socioeconomic status or living in poverty, or has very few resources. 00;53;00;05 - 00;53;28;16 Dr. Jacquelyn Frank They may be in a situation where they're aging in place, not out of choice, but in some ways because of force. But they don't have those supports in place financially or technologically that you really want to see and you would think of when you imagine the idealized picture of what aging in place could be and what we want it to be, if that makes sense. 00;53;28;19 - 00;53;56;13 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Are there times where aging in place could be bad? So I'm thinking, for instance, something you just mentioned about socioeconomic status, and somebody who may come from a lower income background, aging in place, and let's say that they're widowed or they don't have a partner and they're living alone and aging in place, and how does loneliness play into maybe a the opposite side of aging in place? 00;53;56;13 - 00;53;59;07 J.R. Jamison Are there times where it could be negative? 00;53;59;14 - 00;54;31;23 Dr. Jacquelyn Frank Frank: That's a great question because yeah, loneliness and isolation are two of the biggest concerns when it comes to aging in place, especially as maybe, you know, if a partner, a spouse does die, the neighborhood may have transitioned in terms of the people that you know who live there are no longer there. We are becoming more and more, I feel like anyway, in some ways, isolated from each other with the technology. 00;54;31;26 - 00;55;01;22 Dr. Jacquelyn Frank We’re online more, or we’re texting more, but it's less face to face interaction and maybe a sense of support for each other. So yeah, researchers have talked about a huge concern being how much isolation and loneliness someone may experience. And that's really regardless of socioeconomic status when it comes to aging in place, that, you know, that's not a good thing. 00;55;01;25 - 00;55;43;16 Dr. Jacquelyn Frank And aging in place should ideally look supportive and fulfilling for the older adult. Not isolating and not, not promoting depression and sadness among the older adult. But sometimes that's, that's what happens if there aren't, if there isn't a supportive community around them. So again, some of these narratives, it's important to understand, like, you know, the question you asked earlier, why some of these narratives of older adults are important and of aging in place, 00;55;43;16 - 00;56;01;15 Dr. Jacquelyn Frank it's to really understand just how important those people connections are when it comes to aging in place, so that we can defeat or overcome isolation and loneliness that may happen with aging in place. 00;56;01;18 - 00;56;18;28 J.R. Jamison Jamison: I'm interested too in knowing about the incarcerated population. A good portion of your work and research has been focused on aging among the incarcerated. How does aging in place affect that population where home looks very different for them? 00;56;19;05 - 00;56;48;05 Dr. Jacquelyn Frank Frank: That's a great question. Aging in place in an incarcerated environment is sort of forced aging in place. If you've got a life sentence and you're going to be living out the rest of your days in a prison, then aging in place is not really a choice for you. And you likely, well, you're almost certainly not going to have the supports in place that you, that you would on the outside. 00;56;48;10 - 00;57;29;06 Dr. Jacquelyn Frank And it's also- it's interesting because aging in a carceral environment tends to look different and feel different. Some of my research had really focused on the sense of age and aging among people in prison, who especially went in as a juvenile, because even though you may now be in your 30s or 40s - which, you know by no means is elderly - there's a sense among a lot of the men and women that, that I've spoken to or worked with that, that aging is accelerated. 00;57;29;06 - 00;58;19;13 Dr. Jacquelyn Frank And research has tended to show that that physiologically, someone, someone who is incarcerated is equivalent to someone physiologically 10 to 15 years older on the outside, just because of the, the pressures and the stress of the prison environment, the the, the questionable or inconsistent health care available, etc.. That said, for people who have been incarcerated for a very long time, many of the men and women that I've spoken with have said that the people on the inside with them really become their family over 10 or 15 or 20 years. 00;58;19;13 - 00;58;57;19 Dr. Jacquelyn Frank And they do develop a support system, which then, of course, makes it difficult when someone gets released or someone else who's incarcerated with them dies. So then let's look at reentry, release and reentry for someone who is older and incarcerated. Wow. Never mind an impact on your life. If you've been incarcerated 15, 20, 30, 40 years and you're now 55, 60, 65 years old, you are now released to the community to live your life on the outside. 00;58;57;19 - 00;59;42;13 Dr. Jacquelyn Frank And you have stressors that someone who is 65 on the outside just doesn't have. Getting used to a life and society that you've been away from for 30 years, and dealing with the impacts of the aging process at the same time, or family members who've died, etc.. So I hope that that answers the question. It's definitely, you know, aging in place is definitely a term you could use for long term individuals who have been incarcerated long term, but it definitely is forced aging in place rather than having a choice of where you are. 00;59;42;16 - 00;59;53;01 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Yeah, it's definitely different, it sounds like. In the work you've done over time, has there been- is there a common denominator for aging well? 00;59;53;03 - 01;00;37;01 Dr. Jacquelyn Frank Frank: I think attitude and outlook really are a common denominator for aging well. And research actually backs this up. The the Baltimore Longitudinal Study, which has been going on over 50 years now, tracking people, tracking groups of people as they age, and also the New England Centenarian Study, which looks at- That, that study is particularly interesting because it looks at who is likely to make it to 100, and what physical and mental condition are they likely to be in when they reach 100. 01;00;37;01 - 01;01;15;14 Dr. Jacquelyn Frank And research shows that the majority of people who, who make it to 100 are fairly cognitively intact, may have some physical ailments, but have a history of looking at life from a very positive and- positive standpoint and being very resilient. The study also shows that there are people who make it to 100 from across socioeconomic statuses, racial, different racial and ethnic backgrounds, different educational levels. 01;01;15;14 - 01;02;00;06 Dr. Jacquelyn Frank So it's not, you know, only rich and white who make it to 100. So it's, and, and it's people who may have some physical ailments, but it's that positive outlook on life of, of ability to bounce back and see positive things as you go through life and not dwell on stressful things or let the stress really get to you. Which I know might be harder for some people in the current times especially, but that, that your mental attitude and outlook can, can be the- have the biggest impact on your aging process. 01;02;00;06 - 01;02;11;27 Dr. Jacquelyn Frank Whether you are living out in the community or you're incarcerated. That, that outlook and, and attitude make all the difference in your aging process. 01;02;12;00 - 01;02;17;16 J.R. Jamison Jamison: What is a misconception about aging that you hope people would put to bed? 01;02;17;19 - 01;02;53;09 Dr. Jacquelyn Frank Frank: That everything is negative, that everyone totally falls apart. I think that, you know, things certainly change physically and mentally, but a lot of people, you know, say, “I wouldn't want to go back to my 20s or 30s. I've, I've accumulated too much life experience. I find that my life is, is more enriched the older that I get.” So while there are more losses as we get older, there's, there's no denying that, there can also be a lot of gains, a lot. 01;02;53;10 - 01;03;35;05 Dr. Jacquelyn Frank You can still obviously learn new things, make new friends, develop a sense of community, and deepen friendships that you have. So I think that that large misconception really is that that it's all negative. It's all downhill from here. And also that we need to fight aging. That seems to be a really prevalent theme, especially when it comes to the physical aspects of aging and more and more cosmetic surgeries. 01;03;35;05 - 01;03;59;03 Dr. Jacquelyn Frank And, you know, “Well, if I look young, then that will be the answer to everything.” And no, that's not necessarily the case at all. And I think that, yes, the that, that we need to fight aging is also, I think, a misconception or that age is a disease, because it's not. It's part of the natural process of, of life. 01;03;59;03 - 01;04;06;04 Dr. Jacquelyn Frank And while we do lose some things, we also gain some things that we didn't have in our 20s and 30s and 40s. 01;04;06;06 - 01;04;14;14 J.R. Jamison Jamison: What advice would you give to our younger listeners about aging or preparing for aging in place? 01;04;14;15 - 01;04;43;14 Dr. Jacquelyn Frank Frank: I think, so professionally, I'll do the sort of professionally and personally. Professionally, I would say get interested and get educated about aging in place and about older adults and the aging process, because the percentage of people, our population in the US who are over the age of 65 is just going to keep growing. And we're going to, I think, by 2050, the estimate is about 23, 01;04;43;15 - 01;05;13;21 Dr. Jacquelyn Frank 24% of the US population will be over the age of 65. So even if you say professionally, this is a population I'm not interested in, you will be interacting with older adults regardless of what field you go into professionally. And because aging in our society isn't, isn't decreasing, that's not the right word, but will continue to be front and center, 01;05;13;23 - 01;05;56;05 Dr. Jacquelyn Frank any professional field that works with older adults or advocates on their behalf will definitely be a field where you can get a job. So, so professionally speaking, I think it's well worth people's time to focus more on this population. Personally, what I think young people need to think about when it comes to aging in place is always asking themselves the question, what would I want if it were me? 01;05;56;07 - 01;06;35;29 Dr. Jacquelyn Frank What would be fulfilling to me? Because sometimes when it comes to our own family members, an elderly parent or grandparent, we want to be supportive and helpful, but instead it becomes a little bit patronizing and the older adult is seen more as a child where we need to make these decisions for you. And so for younger people to be aware of that, to not take away the agency of someone older just because maybe they're a little frail, or maybe they need a little bit of support because, you know, with any luck, you will be in those shoes one day. 01;06;35;29 - 01;07;11;13 Dr. Jacquelyn Frank You will- The aging and becoming an older adult and an elderly person is a great leveler. If we're lucky enough, we'll all get to that point. And so it cuts across race, gender, socioeconomic status, any of that. We'll all get to that category and that, that, that group at some point in time and thinking about, how do you want to be treated, how would you want to be supported to live your life at that age? 01;07;11;15 - 01;07;24;11 Dr. Jacquelyn Frank So I think because it is a common denominator, it can be a place that brings us together. If, if that makes sense. 01;07;24;13 - 01;07;37;18 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Dr. Jacquelyn Frank, gerontologist and research anthropologist whose work explores aging in place, Alzheimer's disease and dementia, and aging among incarcerated adults, thank you for joining me today on the Facing Project. 01;07;37;19 - 01;07;40;12 Dr. Jacquelyn Frank Frank: Thank you so much for having me. I've really enjoyed it. 01;07;40;18 - 01;07;54;11 J.R. Jamison Jamison: More about Doctor Jacqueline Frank's research can be found online at ResearchGate.net, and resources for Aging in Place can be found through the National Council on Aging at NCOA.org. [Theme music] 01;07;54;14 - 01;08;17;03 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Many thanks once again to my guests Molly Flodder and Dr. Jacquelyn Frank and all of the storytellers and writers who collaborated together to produce “Life After 60: The Golden Years?,” a publication of The Facing Project Press. Molly Flodder’s story, “Discovering the Person I’ve Always Been,” was written in collaboration with Kelsey Timmerman and was performed by Beth Nahre. 01;08;17;05 - 01;08;41;12 J.R. Jamison John Charles Peterson’s story, “Where I’m Supposed to Be,” was written in collaboration with Jeff Pearson and was performed by Jeff Pearson. Kay Stickle’s story, “I’m Busy Retiring–Please Leave a Message,” was written in collaboration with Julie Davis and was performed by Melinda. James Hilleson’s story, “A Time for Everything,” was written in collaboration with Jacquelyn Harris and was performed by Larry Beck. 01;08;41;14 - 01;08;53;15 J.R. Jamison More about starting a Facing Project in your community can be found at FacingProject.com. To listen to past episodes of this program, visit IndianaPublicRadio.org/TheFacingProject 01;08;53;18 - 01;09;22;28 J.R. Jamison or find us on your favorite podcast app, or on YouTube, or on the NPR network. Or just ask your smart speaker to play the Facing Project on NPR. To continue the conversation about this episode, find us on Facebook and Instagram at Facing Project. The Facing Project is recorded at Indiana Public Radio at Ball State University in beautiful and wonderful and evergreen Muncie, Indiana, and is produced by the amazing producer and audio engineer extraordinaire Sean Ashcraft. 01;09;23;00 - 01;09;34;24 J.R. Jamison The show is distributed nationally through PRX. I'm your host, J.R. Jamison. And until next time, I wish you the courage to share your own story and the empathy to listen to others. [Theme music drum fill and slow fade]