00;00;01;07 - 00;00;27;12 J.R. Jamison [Theme music] Jamison: I'm J.R. Jamison. Today on the Facing Project, I'll be joined by author and former Facing Project show host Kelsey Timmerman, whose new book, “Regenerating Earth: Farmers Working with Nature to Feed Our Future,” was just released by Patagonia. Researched and written over five years, Kelsey traveled the globe and provides a mix of investigative journalism and vivid storytelling. The book highlights farmers restoring soil health, promoting biodiversity, and sequestering carbon. 00;00;27;15 - 00;00;39;03 J.R. Jamison Kelsey takes readers down forgotten rivers in the Amazon, to traditional Hawaiian kalo patches, and to indigenous communities who have long practiced sustainable land stewardship. And later, Kelsey will keep the mic. 00;00;39;04 - 00;00;40;03 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: Give me that thing! 00;00;40;09 - 00;00;41;21 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Okay, okay, you can have it. 00;00;41;21 - 00;01;06;12 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: And I'll be chatting with Chris Baggot, who is the owner and founder of Tyner Pond Farm, a regenerative farm in Greenfield, Indiana. Baggot was a tech entrepreneur who now spends less time indoors thinking about quarterly reports and more time outside pondering microorganisms in the soil. He'll share how this journey has changed his life and land, and how providing affordable, nutrient dense food to people in his neck of the woods has become his mission. 00;01;06;13 - 00;01;12;01 Kelsey Timmerman Stay with us. [Theme music] 00;01;12;03 - 00;01;25;15 J.R. Jamison Jamison: You're listening to the Facing Project, and I'm J.R. Jamison. My guest today is a voice you might recall. So without burying the lead, I'm delighted to be joined by author and former Facing Project show host Kelsey Timmerman. 00;01;25;17 - 00;01;27;01 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: “And I'm Kelsey Timmerman.” 00;01;27;01 - 00;01;47;04 J.R. Jamison Jamison: “And I'm J.R. Jamison.” Just like old times. Kelsey has a new book out, “Regenerating Earth: Farmers Working With Nature to Feed Our Future,” and it was just released by Patagonia. Kelsey, I'm super thrilled to have you back in studio with me. It's been too long since you've been sitting across from me and, and getting to have a conversation. 00;01;47;05 - 00;02;05;29 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: It's good to be back. I'm happy that you're kind of taking the baton and moving forward with the Facing Project. This book is part of the reason that I really wasn't able to kind of continue in my capacity here as your co-host. I'm sorry. It took like five years. I did record some episodes for The Facing Project, I think from Brazil? 00;02;06;05 - 00;02;06;18 J.R. Jamison Jamison: You did, that’s right. 00;02;06;19 - 00;02;14;05 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: I had Covid in the AirBNB in Sao Paulo, and then I was doing the thing where I had the comforter over my head interviewing people. 00;02;14;07 - 00;02;22;15 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Yes, yeah. And we both were actually at home because we couldn't come into the studio. So I was kind of holed up in a little closet. Yeah. You were under... 00;02;22;16 - 00;02;23;14 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: It’s a sad state of affairs. [Laughter] 00;02;23;15 - 00;02;32;07 J.R. Jamison Jamison: You were underneath a blanket or a bedspread from a hotel, which everyone says, don't touch. And you have a, you know, draped over you while you're trying to record. 00;02;32;07 - 00;03;01;02 J.R. Jamison So we really do this for our listeners to make sure that we're delivering this. But I'm also excited to say, and I don't want to hide this at all, another little secret is you're actually going to be hosting a few of the episodes later this season, and you're also staying on after our conversation today to interview Chris Baggot, who's an Indiana farmer working to build a local food system while healing the land through regenerative farming practices. 00;03;01;03 - 00;03;04;19 J.R. Jamison So yeah, I'm excited to have you back in this capacity. 00;03;04;20 - 00;03;05;19 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: I'm excited about it, too. 00;03;05;20 - 00;03;10;09 J.R. Jamison Jamison: And maybe it will just be the way that we can kind of pull you back in. Season eight.... 00;03;10;09 - 00;03;11;01 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: Oh, there’s a secret agenda here. 00;03;11;03 - 00;03;14;06 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Season eight coming out in January. You... 00;03;14;08 - 00;03;15;21 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: Get some of that sweet Facing Project cheddar. 00;03;15;28 - 00;03;23;03 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Yeah, right. [Laughter] If only. But you could be back as a volunteer [laughs] co-host... 00;03;23;04 - 00;03;23;13 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: Happy to do that. 00;03;23;16 - 00;03;36;19 J.R. Jamison Jamison: ...with me once again. Okay, so I've known you for a decade and a half now, which is crazy to even think about. And, you know, of course, we've worked closely together with founding the Facing Project and getting it... 00;03;36;23 - 00;03;37;15 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: We met through the Facing Project. 00;03;37;19 - 00;03;55;18 J.R. Jamison Jamison: We met through the Facing Project. Yeah. Before it was even the Facing Project, right, the very first Facing Poverty, and you recruited me to be a writer. And that kind of sealed our friendship, and pulling you into probably more projects than you ever wanted to, to be engaged with, but it kind of grew its own legs and became a life of its own. 00;03;55;18 - 00;04;16;25 J.R. Jamison But it meant that we spent a lot of time together over the last decade and a half, and then, of course, co-hosting the show together. And you're also a dear friend of mine and a brother from another mother, as I often like to say. But when other thing that I know about you, because I spent so much time with you, is that you're a bit of an obsessive person, and I feel like I can say that. 00;04;16;25 - 00;04;19;12 J.R. Jamison And I think you admit that... 00;04;19;13 - 00;04;20;15 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: I definitely. 00;04;20;16 - 00;04;21;16 J.R. Jamison Jamison: ...as well, right? 00;04;21;19 - 00;04;25;08 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: And you've got the receipts, you know, to prove that. [Laughter] 00;04;25;10 - 00;04;36;02 J.R. Jamison Jamison: I do. I promise Kelsey would not “Barbara Walters” him at all during this interview, and I don't plan to do that. But the one thing I will say is you're, you're an obsessive person. Tell me more. 00;04;36;04 - 00;04;58;23 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: Yeah. I mean, for sure, like, I like to follow a question around the world. That's kind of been what I've done, whether it's “Where Am I Wearing?” where I went to Bangladesh and Cambodia and Honduras to see where my clothes are made, to following my coffee and chocolate from, from Colombia to West Africa. Yeah. So I'm definitely, you know, following my questions. 00;04;58;23 - 00;05;06;02 Kelsey Timmerman I'm very curious. I think I'd like to say “curious” more than “obsessive,” but it's a bit of, I'm obsessively curious. 00;05;06;04 - 00;05;08;05 J.R. Jamison Jamison: You're curiousness leads to obsession. 00;05;08;05 - 00;05;10;00 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: I'm curiously obsessive, I don't know. 00;05;10;01 - 00;05;10;17 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Yeah. 00;05;10;18 - 00;05;11;17 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: Something like that. 00;05;11;18 - 00;05;35;05 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Well, this book was no different, right? But this time, it was really a question that led to your curiousness. I guess all questions do, right? That's part of the “curious” piece of it. But then led to another obsession, and that is, “What is regenerative agriculture?” So after writing and researching and writing this book, how do you define regenerative agriculture? 00;05;35;07 - 00;05;56;14 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: That's can be controversial because different people have different ways to define that. And to some extent, like, I know it better now than I did when I started researching it, but in other ways, like, I see that there's so many other definitions. So I think regenerative agriculture is something you, you know it when you see it and when you feel it. 00;05;56;22 - 00;06;18;13 Kelsey Timmerman It's agriculture done in a way that makes a place better. It's a better home for animals that live there. It's a better home for the little microorganisms that live in the soil. Right? Which there are more microorganisms in a teaspoon of healthy soil than there are people on Earth. Right? And that's the health. That's the healthy soil. Right. 00;06;18;13 - 00;06;37;13 Kelsey Timmerman And it's also better for the people in the farmers and for the rivers and for the air. And there's, there's a lot of different ways that people define it, whether it's more diversity, less use of chemicals or plowing. And when I say diversity, I mean like cultural diversity. 00;06;37;15 - 00;06;39;28 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Biodiversity, culture and... 00;06;40;01 - 00;07;10;29 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: Biodiversity, cultural diversity. Places are different, people are different. I also think there's somewhat of a almost like a spiritual component to this, where people really believe in reciprocity and connection with the land. And sometimes that can almost be like a little bit religious for some people, and different religions can fit into that definition. So yeah, I think it's not degenerative. For, for years, for decades, for millennia, 00;07;11;01 - 00;07;33;29 Kelsey Timmerman often we farm in a way that is making places worse for, for many of the, the, the living beings that inhabit that space. And so regenerative is this idea that we can farm in a way that is good for all those living species and for the cycles of nature that exist in those places. 00;07;34;00 - 00;08;00;21 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Yeah. I love how you describe in the book this inner continental approach to regenerative agriculture. And you write different continents, different cultures, different hats, but the same message. Talk more about that. And I'm curious too on the spiritual side, because I got when you were in South America, right? And you'd gone deep into the heart of the world. 00;08;00;24 - 00;08;21;17 J.R. Jamison There was this meditative practice and sense. Right? And that came out some of the Amazon too when you were in that area. But I'm curious too to know how American farmers approach that as part of their regenerative. So some of this, right, like it's- Talk more about the different continents, different cultures, different hats but the same message. 00;08;21;20 - 00;08;27;12 J.R. Jamison But what does that look like right across those different cultures, continents etc.? 00;08;27;13 - 00;08;51;20 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: For sure. So let's, let's go hat by hat, right? And it's something I was not expecting. I thought it would be like a little bit different, but there's still like this kind of same vibe that exists among people and their connection with the land. Right? And it's just different cultures have a different way of talking about that. And some some have a better terms and longer roots that they can process that connection better. 00;08;51;25 - 00;09;11;25 Kelsey Timmerman And for some people it's kind of this rediscovery. Okay. So let's start with what you mentioned, the heart of the world, the Arhuaco. It's an indigenous group that lives in the northern part of Colombia in the mountains. And they believe that they were put on Earth to be the caretakers of this place they call the heart of the earth. 00;09;11;25 - 00;09;19;07 Kelsey Timmerman And they think if anything bad happens, the heart of the earth, the whole world will fall into this, you know, desperate times, right? 00;09;19;08 - 00;09;22;10 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Yeah. And it's literally shaped like a heart. You talk about this in the book. 00;09;22;11 - 00;09;39;07 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: Yeah. And not like a, like, Taylor Swift, like, putting up a heart symbol, right? It's more like a, a biological heart. Right? These ventricles and that are like, look like rivers. And so I think I don't know if that's what they were going for when they said the heart of the world, but kind of looks, looks like the heart of the world. 00;09;39;13 - 00;10;03;05 Kelsey Timmerman But to take that level of responsibility for the place that they live and this connection that they have with different plants are not like just, “This is a plant.” This is, like, part of our relation, right? The mountains, like, they talk with the mountains. When I showed up there, they had to ask the mountains for permission for me to be there. 00;10;03;08 - 00;10;19;21 Kelsey Timmerman And they say, like, all the mountains in the world are connected. And so, yeah, I thought it was going to go to spend time with Arhuaco, and they were going to show me their farming practices, and instead they were like, “Okay, American dude with the Rural King hat on, you're going to sit in the- you're going to sit in the jungle. 00;10;19;23 - 00;10;28;06 Kelsey Timmerman And you're going to get eaten alive by bugs.” And no one- They weren't getting eaten by bugs. You know, the mountains were like testing, doing a blood test on me, I think. 00;10;28;07 - 00;10;28;26 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Oh, no. 00;10;28;26 - 00;10;40;01 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: So that's Arhuaco of this very, like, spiritual connection. And they do that every year. Every kind of spring is like their time to ask permission from the land to farm. 00;10;40;03 - 00;10;44;21 Kelsey Timmerman And so that's the Arhuaco with these white shaped hats that look like... 00;10;44;22 - 00;10;45;13 J.R. Jamison Jamison: ...the mountain tops. 00;10;45;13 - 00;11;03;15 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: ...the mountain peaks. Right. And then you go to Georgia, where you have a farmer named Will Harris, who wears a cowboy hat and talks like Foghorn Leghorn, you know, and he says that. I'm not, you know, he says that; I'm not making fun of him. Right? He reads his own audio- He has an audio book that just came out about a year ago. 00;11;03;16 - 00;11;21;00 Kelsey Timmerman He reads the audiobook and I can listen to Will talk all day long. And so he grew up on a cattle farm, you know, over a thousand acres. His dad had it, and there was like three people that worked on this cattle farm in this town of Bluffton, Georgia, was just losing people as farmers were packing it in and moving to the city. 00;11;21;00 - 00;11;39;20 Kelsey Timmerman And he saw one day that, he loaded up his cattle to be going to a feedlot after grazing for, you know, a while on his land. And they were going to go the feedlot and then be, you know, killed. And he some cattle were on top of others and different levels of this truck and they were just like pooping and peeing on the cows below. 00;11;39;20 - 00;12;06;06 Kelsey Timmerman And he's like, this does not seem right. So he started on this journey. And now when he talks about his land, he talks about a very like he's very connected with it, has, like, parts of the land that aren't even farmed. And just like, like are kind of pools of water or swamp land that he comes to check out the beaver there and finds great meaning in that. 00;12;06;06 - 00;12;28;21 Kelsey Timmerman And I was like, this is a really special place. And almost was moved to tears when we talked about that place being harmed by a hurricane. And this isn't a place that he's monetizing whatsoever. This, and in many ways, if you look at how land is valued in American society, forests aren't worth hardly anything compared to bare farmland. 00;12;28;21 - 00;12;56;16 Kelsey Timmerman And so what Will is doing when his neighbors are selling their land, he's always trying to- He always tries to buy it and then turn it around by having, like, planting, like, more native, like, grasses that then he can raise his cattle on and try to turn it, turn it around. Right? And and when you're on Will's land, it kind of reminded me of the time I spent with the Maasai on the savannas of Kenya. 00;12;56;19 - 00;13;23;13 Kelsey Timmerman Right? Because there's, like, these white birds on the backs of cattle. And so, yeah. And then there was a Maasai that are, like, in Kenya that are herders and, you know, they herd in lion territory, and they, you know, every day they're taking the cattle to the watering hole. And there's still this, like- they believe that the, the cattle were given to them by a god. 00;13;23;14 - 00;13;52;13 Kelsey Timmerman Right? And so- but they still have this very similar connection and, like, responsibility to the land. You could say the same thing in Hawaii. They have this term called kuleana, which is like a right and responsibility to care for other people, but also the land. So it all starts to rhyme. And I wasn't really expecting that. And that's what I'm really excited about for, for people to read, because there’s- regenerative agriculture has kind of become more of a term that people are starting to get to know a little bit. 00;13;52;14 - 00;14;14;25 Kelsey Timmerman You see it at the farmers market. But, but often we think about it in terms of just like an American thing. And it was so much influenced by native farming practices and practices that- people from Africa that were, were forcibly brought over here, kind of brought over to the United States as well. 00;14;14;27 - 00;14;43;07 J.R. Jamison Jamison: I think that's a really great point, and I appreciated how well researched and deep focused this book was on indigenous cultures and black and brown folks, and that regeneration really comes from them. But you write in the book that fewer than 2% of American farmers are people of color. You quoted author and farmer Leah Penniman, who said in her book when talking about the hesitancy for black Americans to become farmers and is tangled history with slavery. 00;14;43;07 - 00;15;10;01 J.R. Jamison “And yet we are keenly aware that something is missing, that a gap exists where once there was a connection. This generation of Black people is becoming known as the returning generation of agrarian people. Our grandparents, back to the land, fled the red clays of Georgia, and we are now cautiously working to make sense of reconciliation with land. We somehow know that without the land, we cannot return to freedom.” 00;15;10;04 - 00;15;16;22 J.R. Jamison Talk more about what you found in your travels and research with the returning generation. 00;15;16;24 - 00;15;42;08 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: Yeah, I think this is a really important example of people that have been forcibly disconnected from where they live, right? And then not giving access to land in the United States, I mean, until really, really recent. Also, you know, black people are- see working on the land as something that was a bad thing that they were forced- that their ancestors were forced to do. 00;15;42;14 - 00;16;14;16 Kelsey Timmerman And their ancestors have worked in a way to provide them with a future that is not working on the land. Right? That's where you can be more successful at. So Leah is definitely one of the leaders in this space with her farm. She brings people, kind of, back to the land and, kind of, tries to do some healing with, you know- and I think we're all kind of disconnected from the land, maybe not in such an extreme way, but we all have farmers, and they don't have to go very far back, 00;16;14;17 - 00;16;16;11 Kelsey Timmerman I'm sure, in the Jamison history. 00;16;16;13 - 00;16;16;18 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Yeah! 00;16;16;19 - 00;16;20;13 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: You know, that you had farmers in your background as well. 00;16;20;15 - 00;16;22;05 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Yes. Tobacco farmers. 00;16;22;06 - 00;16;32;17 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: Yeah. And that land now is probably owned by someone else. And the family moved away from the land. And I know for a fact that you have become more of a birder now, right? 00;16;32;20 - 00;16;34;00 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. 00;16;34;01 - 00;16;37;03 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: You came to my house and were telling me all about the birds at my house. 00;16;37;06 - 00;16;42;28 J.R. Jamison Jamison: I told you what a bird was, right? Like, we're like, “What is that bird out there?” And I looked it up in my birding book. [Laughter] 00;16;43;04 - 00;16;49;18 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: It was great. I mean, he was a full on, I think of that, that little boy in Up with the binoculars. That was Mr. J.R. Jamison. 00;16;49;19 - 00;16;56;04 J.R. Jamison Jamison: I'm all in. I have my binoculars. I have my bird book, and I'm out in nature spotting, spotting the wildlife. 00;16;56;05 - 00;17;30;18 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: And we don't know so much about where we live. In Hawaii, there's a woman named Malia Choon who was telling me - she's a Hawaiian cultural practitioner - and we're talking about how she's trying to educate, like, Hawaiians to reconnect with their place, which completely supported- they completely supported themselves on agriculture and fishing. Like, the island of Kaua’I had a larger population it does now, and it was completely self-sufficient. 00;17;30;19 - 00;17;55;28 Kelsey Timmerman Today, the island, 90% of the food comes from a barge, and if those barges stop - and they have stopped, right, they will stop in the future - it's kind of a panic time. So but, you know, one of the things that they teach is, “What river do you belong to?” I really love that sentiment. And kind of, like, where- what river, what watershed did you live in when you were born? 00;17;55;28 - 00;17;58;11 Kelsey Timmerman Do you even know it? Like, a lot of us don't know. 00;17;58;12 - 00;18;17;25 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Well, and when you write about that in the book, I had to stop and think. But I was like, wait, yours is the Mississinewa. What is mine? I was like, well, mine has to be the White River, right? Because I thought about the creek near where I grew up out in Cowen, Indiana, No Name Creek that runs into Buck Creek that I believe runs into the White River. 00;18;17;26 - 00;18;32;07 J.R. Jamison Right? So, so then I had to really think about that and think about my past and think about place and think about impact, right? I think that's a really great way to think about our connection to nature is starting with, “What river are you from?” Is that the way it’s phrased? 00;18;32;10 - 00;18;50;03 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: Yeah, you start thinking like that and see, you see that those layers of connection, whether it's just in the rivers themselves, you know, that's kind of how I end the book, right? If, like the Mississinewa runs to the Wabash, the Wabash runs to the -oh gosh, I can't remember what it is... I think it's the Mississippi - 00;18;50;09 - 00;18;51;18 J.R. Jamison Jamison: The Ohio. 00;18;51;19 - 00;18;57;16 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: The Ohio? The Ohio runs into the Mississippi and Mississippi runs to the Gulf of Mexico, which is connected to every, 00;18;57;19 - 00;19;10;25 Kelsey Timmerman you know, the oceans are connected to every water source anywhere in the world. So this idea of, of connection, I think, is one way of trying to remember where we come from. 00;19;10;27 - 00;19;31;11 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Yeah. Well, this practice of regenerative agriculture seems to lead to regenerative thinking and knowing and understanding. As we were just talking about that everything on Earth is interconnected. How might this type of thinking and reconnection to Earth and understanding that we are nature, lead to other progressive ideals? 00;19;31;16 - 00;19;57;15 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: Yeah. I mean, I think it's really important that we connect with place and that regenerative agriculture isn't something that just farmers can do. We certainly should support those farmers. And there's a really great resource. Regeneration International's website has a farm map, and there are like four regenerative farms - kind of self-identified regenerative farms a little bit, so - that are on the- near Muncie. 00;19;57;18 - 00;20;17;19 Kelsey Timmerman Right? And if you pan out more, you can actually see Chris's farm coming up, Tyner Pond Farm, you see it listed as well. And those are farms that are more than likely welcome you onto the farm. So, you know, our diets are a way that we're connected with the natural world, right? And, and often that is not a great thing. 00;20;17;21 - 00;20;46;01 Kelsey Timmerman Right? Like if we're not honoring that relationship and it's doing- bringing harm to the world, but this connection can be a good thing for us and for, you know, our, our places. And yeah, so it's not just something that farmers and not just something about eating. It's more than that. It is knowing what river you belong to. It's, I think it's also about knowing, trying to remember your and find out about your lineage and your history. 00;20;46;01 - 00;21;08;11 Kelsey Timmerman And when there were farmers or where people moved from. I mean, we were at one point, if you go far enough back in our- your family tree, your family is probably indigenous to somewhere, right? And kept having to be moved, maybe willingly or maybe forced off the land or subjected under some, some, you know, power that that took over the land. 00;21;08;14 - 00;21;30;11 Kelsey Timmerman And so it is kind of growing those roots, whether it's to- with literal roots of having- just grow a tomato plant on your back porch, right? See the miracle that exists in the seed- in a seed? It's ridiculous, this tiny little thing. I think about, like, a sunflower. Oh my gosh, you put a- plant a sunflower seed. 00;21;30;12 - 00;21;52;11 Kelsey Timmerman Tiny little seed grows up to be, like, 12ft tall. And if you try to kick it over at its base with your foot, you probably bruise your toenail. Right? And that's in one season. And then the head of the sunflower has, I don't know, a thousand other seeds in it that could be planted. Right? And suddenly our whole world is just one giant sunflower, and they destroy us all. 00;21;52;13 - 00;22;05;20 Kelsey Timmerman I don't- you know, that's going a little too far. But this idea of, like, believing that humans can be a force of good, and it's not something that I've always believed. 00;22;05;21 - 00;22;06;14 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Yeah. 00;22;06;17 - 00;22;24;10 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: And I think it's- This project has helped me believe that. Right? That we're often seen as like if - and it's depicted in science fiction movies, right? Like, if there's aliens, before they invade Earth, they do an investigation of what this plan is going to be like. Well, first we got to get rid of these humans, because they're destroying the place, right? 00;22;24;16 - 00;22;51;18 Kelsey Timmerman Or AI comes into power and becomes like something from the Matrix or Terminator. Right? And it's like, “The virus are humans. We must wipe out the humans.” And. But we can believe- we can be a force for good and interact with the natural world and other living beings that exist in our world in a way that really enriches our lives and betters our health, strengthens our communities, and can be- we can be a good thing. 00;22;51;20 - 00;23;16;13 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Yeah. I mean, I will say simplistically, if everyone did this, right, it does seem like it helped regenerate the Earth at a faster pace. But realistically, is it possible? What does it look like for someone living in a city or the suburbs? You talked about planting a tomato plant. That may be one step, but what does this look like in a realistic way for someone living in a city or the suburbs? 00;23;16;19 - 00;23;33;23 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: Yeah, so this is a cultural thing, not just for all of us, right? This shift in thinking of- so it could look a lot of different ways living in a city, could be, like you said, planting a tomato. I think it could be having a favorite tree, I think- Do you have a favorite tree? 00;23;33;26 - 00;23;46;04 J.R. Jamison Jamison: In my backyard. And in fact, after I mow - and I know grass is a touchy topic that we won't get into today, we don't have time for that. But after I mow my grass, I have a favorite tree... 00;23;46;04 - 00;23;46;07 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: Do you hug the tree? 00;23;46;07 - 00;23;48;00 J.R. Jamison Jamison: ...that I touch. 00;23;48;01 - 00;23;48;27 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: Okay, yes! 00;23;48;27 - 00;23;58;03 J.R. Jamison Jamison: And I feel the energy of the tree, and I thank the tree for giving me the space to live in my backyard, in my house, in the area. 00;23;58;04 - 00;24;02;23 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: That's pretty good. I don't know if you need to go that woo woo. I'm kidding. [Laughter] 00;24;02;25 - 00;24;14;26 J.R. Jamison Jamison: I mean, I feel, I feel - and maybe I'm, maybe I'm, maybe I'm imagining this in my head, right? But when I touch the tree, I feel almost energy coming through my hands into my arms. Am I crazy? [Laughs] 00;24;14;27 - 00;24;34;03 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: No, I don't think so. I think about the term “tree hugger” is kind of used as this negative thing for people that have gone hippie dippy woo woo, right? But, like, I would just say, “Have you hugged a tree? And have you smelled up, been up close and felt the, the bark on your hands and smelled what the tree is?” 00;24;34;03 - 00;24;53;28 Kelsey Timmerman And I think the really cool thing is to feel moving, like, back and forth if it's windy or if it's a really tall tree, you can kind of feel it sway, and just think about this thing that, that - there's trees on my property that probably are just maybe a little bit older than me and are like 60ft tall or something, you know? 00;24;54;00 - 00;25;20;21 Kelsey Timmerman So yes, if you even if you're in a city, you have a favorite tree. And I think I think most people do, right? I've, I've several favorite trees. So the city, like, being part of some natural space, whether that's your back porch or whether that's a local park, and then being responsible for, being- observing it, and then being responsible for it. 00;25;20;22 - 00;25;24;29 Kelsey Timmerman So every park surely has volunteers, right? 00;25;25;01 - 00;25;27;12 J.R. Jamison Jamison: So it's being a good steward of the land. 00;25;27;13 - 00;25;41;05 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: Yeah. Often every watershed has certain practices and cleanup days and things like that that you can be- help be responsible and be a caretaker for that river. So even if you're living in a high rise, you- there's some river that you belong to. 00;25;41;07 - 00;25;58;25 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Yeah. And I think, too, recognizing, as you were saying, right, you started talking about, “Do you have a favorite tree?” I think recognizing, too- I live in the city, but I'm a walker. And when I go out and I walk, I can smell trees, but I'm intentionally trying to find the smells in the air. I'm trying to identify the birds. 00;25;58;25 - 00;26;11;29 J.R. Jamison Right? And that's maybe part of it too, right? Is starting small by connecting to the Earth in that way to realize that we are, right? We're all interconnected. Not just humans, but every part and living species of this planet. 00;26;12;00 - 00;26;30;13 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: And that's something that the Arhuaco in Columbia have never forgotten, that the two Panamba in Brazil I spent some time with along the Amazon have never forgotten. And it's something that they're like actively trying to teach the world. Right? They have some of the cultural- the cultural shift that needs to happen in our society. You know, it's out there. 00;26;30;13 - 00;26;35;28 Kelsey Timmerman We can- there's people that can show us the way, what it's like to get back in touch with nature. 00;26;36;00 - 00;26;57;16 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Yeah. You write about conventional farming in the book, and that's mostly what's done here in the Midwest where we are. It seems to me that politicians, corporations and greed seem to be acting against regeneration. How do we convince them otherwise while keeping the value and ethos of regeneration? 00;26;57;17 - 00;27;25;24 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: I mean, what comes down to it, degeneration makes more money, right? But a lot of farmers are kind of questioning this industrial system that they are in, when the, the prices of their, their corn, soybeans goes down and the cost of the chemicals that they spray on the fields is constantly going up. And I think something that's important to remember, that the farmers who are still farming today in these soybean, corn systems are, like, the best at what they do. 00;27;25;27 - 00;27;54;15 Kelsey Timmerman And they inherited this practice of agriculture, this, kind of, chemically intensive, reliant on major corporations. They inherited that from maybe their father, more likely their grandfather. And when they started on this journey, they didn't know it was bad. It was a time- in the 80s when something- food that was produced in a factory was deemed more healthy than food that came from, you know, straight from the dirt. Right? 00;27;54;16 - 00;27;56;06 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Lean Cuisines. Yeah. [Laughter] 00;27;56;09 - 00;28;12;13 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: That's so good. Right? So good. And these farmers, like, well, Harris talks about this - the farmer in Georgia with the cowboy hat - talked about how his, I don't know, Daddy - he probably called him “Daddy.” The fertilizer salesman came to their house. He's like, “Hey, dump this on your yard and come back in 2 or 3 days and see what it looks like.” 00;28;12;14 - 00;28;33;01 Kelsey Timmerman And the grass was taller and greener. And he has cattle to feed. And the more his grass grows, the more cattle he can feed, the more money he can make. This is a miracle. Well, it turns out that can kill the life in the soil, the biology of the soil. And it also can run off into the rivers and leads to more soil loss and all that stuff. Right? 00;28;33;03 - 00;28;37;07 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Yeah. Absolutely poisoning us, right, who are consuming these things as well. 00;28;37;08 - 00;29;05;28 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: And the farmers themselves. Right? But we didn't know that at first. And the chemicals have become maybe less terrible, but they're still kind of degenerative, right? They're still dangerous for farmers for, for us. And but yeah, I think that the farmers are now seeing that they need to explore different ways because it's harder and harder to make a living as a farmer. 00;29;05;28 - 00;29;11;27 Kelsey Timmerman I know right near me there's like 585 acres that are up for sale now. And plus the land is worth so much. 00;29;12;01 - 00;29;12;21 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Yeah. 00;29;12;25 - 00;29;19;00 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: Price of Indiana farmland cleared out land can be like 15 to $20,000 an acre. 00;29;19;01 - 00;29;19;20 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Wow. 00;29;19;22 - 00;29;33;24 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: And you have- If you owned 100 acres, you can't really make a living on it. It's hard to make a living on 100 acres. No, you know, no one is, hardly. And that would be one and a half to $2 million of value in that 100 acres. 00;29;33;24 - 00;29;47;07 Kelsey Timmerman And you couldn't make a living. Like what other business out there is, like, you invest $2 million on this and you'll make $40,000 a year. Maybe. [Laughter] Or half the time you're going to lose money. No one is doing that, right? 00;29;47;08 - 00;30;13;06 Kelsey Timmerman And our whole system is built around supporting this. A lot of times these these companies, right, that through crop insurance that support farmers, but also make sure they continue to pay for inputs from these companies or as a friend, a local farm friend who grows corn, soybeans says that the farmers are being farmed by these corporations, and they're kind of getting sick of being farmed by these corporations, and they're exploring new ways to farm. 00;30;13;08 - 00;30;41;00 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Yeah. And you profile an under-35 couple in the book, Haley and John, who are two New York City transplants putting down roots on a midwestern farm. I'm curious to know about that, right? Leading off of, of your response to that last question, first generation farmers are fewer than 7%, right, of, of, of farmers. And you throw regeneration into it, which isn't, right, 00;30;41;01 - 00;30;42;26 J.R. Jamison much of a moneymaker. It can be. 00;30;42;27 - 00;30;44;01 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: It can be more at risk, too. 00;30;44;01 - 00;30;56;23 J.R. Jamison Jamison: But it can be more at risk. So tell me, when you profiled Haley and John, these two 30-somethings who moved from New York City to farm, what did you learn from them? What could others learn from them? 00;30;56;24 - 00;31;17;00 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: Yeah, I mean, they were a great couple, really resilient, really made a big effort to get back to the land, right? And it's kind of a wild story that- And land costs so much, as I just said. And tractors cost so much. Equipment cost so much. Like how do you get into it? Well, it turns out, like, the average age of an American farmer is something like 65. 00;31;17;08 - 00;31;43;28 Kelsey Timmerman And a lot of those farmers don't have either children who want- that want to farm. Or they have multiple children; one of them wants to farm, the others don't, and suddenly you have millions of dollars of assets on the table. So they're, like, almost have to sell the farm, right? Because not everyone wants to farm. And so for Haley and John, they were getting desperate, and they tried to farm a little bit with family, and it wasn't working out. 00;31;44;01 - 00;32;09;22 Kelsey Timmerman And so it wasn't going to be ever, like kind of, their farm. They weren’t able to farm in the way they wanted to farm. So one day, Haley was on Craigslist and saw an ad by Paul, who's an aging farmer who didn't have anyone to pass his farming skills and, and connection to this place in Wisconsin. And so they answered the ad, and they got teamed up with Paul. 00;32;09;22 - 00;32;32;06 Kelsey Timmerman And then Paul was able to pass down his knowledge of the place. And I think that's what farmers want. It's just not the, the, the, the money. Right? It’s they- they put so much blood, sweat and tears into a place, and they know it. And they want to pass on this knowledge and these skills onto people who will take care of this place even after they're gone. 00;32;32;06 - 00;32;57;17 Kelsey Timmerman And so, you know, now, they have been working to buy Paul out of the farm. And, and a really sad part of the story is, tragically, Paul died on an on-farm accident after I had visited. And, you know, but Haley and John had worked with him for years. And the way that Paul talked about them was like he was relieved that there would be someone after him. 00;32;57;20 - 00;32;59;16 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Who would learn from him and take over. 00;32;59;16 - 00;33;14;05 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: And he would kind of live on in that way. His care for that place would live on. And that's what Haley and John kind of gave to him. And, and it was a way for a young, young people to get back on the land. And then in order to do that, you have to have people that own the land... 00;33;14;07 - 00;33;14;26 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Who are willing to do that. 00;33;14;26 - 00;33;16;02 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: Are willing. Yeah. 00;33;16;03 - 00;33;30;18 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Is there a good place for people to find, adopt, adopt a farmer [laughter] place. I know, like you mentioned, it was on Craigs, Craigslist, right? It's how they found each other. Is there, is there a way, a connection? Maybe there needs- maybe this is an opportunity for someone to create... 00;33;30;18 - 00;33;32;21 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: I think “Farmers Only dot com.” [Laughter] 00;33;32;21 - 00;33;40;21 J.R. Jamison Jamison: I think that's a different... I think that might be a dating site, but. Right, like, you're kind of courting a mentor in this way, I guess. 00;33;40;22 - 00;34;06;25 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: I mean, there's so- I forget the amount of farmland that is going to change hands, and it's just really critical time the next like 15 or 20 years. Is it going to be bought by large corporations who hire people to farm? Which is kind of what's trending now. You know, organizations that own tens of thousands of acres in multiple states that hire people to farm this land that they're really not connected with. 00;34;06;29 - 00;34;29;02 Kelsey Timmerman And so I would just, in your local community, like, you could ask around, right, because there are more than likely farmers who don't know what to do. Are they just going to, like, cash out? Who's to blame them, right? Or are they going to try to incorporate young farmers in some way onto their land to pass down that knowledge? 00;34;29;02 - 00;34;45;19 Kelsey Timmerman And that can be a very costly thing for them to do, too, because the resource of the land costs so much now. So I don't really have any good answers. I know one of the farmers I met said that this is a myth, that young people wanted to get back to farming, but I met a lot of young people who - 00;34;45;21 - 00;34;58;06 Kelsey Timmerman but it's kind of like, that's kind of what I was looking at too. So I don't know exactly what those numbers will look like, but I really hope that if younger people don't get into farming... 00;34;58;08 - 00;34;58;21 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Yeah. 00;34;58;23 - 00;35;07;18 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: ...it is going to be, like, larger and larger corporations that own larger and larger amounts of the land that will feed us in the future. 00;35;07;20 - 00;35;08;04 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Yeah. 00;35;08;09 - 00;35;09;22 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: I don't see that being a great thing. 00;35;09;23 - 00;35;10;01 J.R. Jamison Jamison: No. 00;35;10;03 - 00;35;15;23 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: Because it is profit over people. What's the purpose of agriculture? Is it to feed us, or is it to make money? 00;35;15;24 - 00;35;37;04 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Yeah, and this isn't just a US issue. I mean, you write in the book, this is happening all over the world, right? Of, of younger farmers wanting to get into the game, but the cost of it isn't beneficial or there may not be a sustainable solution to it. And then what is their choice, to sell out? Or do they keep fighting? 00;35;37;05 - 00;36;04;23 J.R. Jamison Right? And so it seems almost impossible in some ways. But it also seems like there are really great people out there who are putting in the work and the effort to turn this around. And it's just, like, your book and other people getting the message out about this to attract younger farmers who, who want to do this type of regenerate- regeneration and be at one with our planet as they're doing their work of farming. 00;36;04;26 - 00;36;26;28 J.R. Jamison I want to go back to the preface of your book. You talk about being from a first generation of Timmermans not to farm the land, and that you never wanted to be a farmer because living off the land meant having to stay. Obviously you did leave, and you've traveled all over the world over the past 20 years, and your experiences have shaped the way you interact with the world and its magic of life. 00;36;27;04 - 00;36;31;08 J.R. Jamison What does staying after all of this travel mean to you now? 00;36;31;13 - 00;36;49;02 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: Yeah, I mean, a lot of this is to blame that is- a lot to blame on Annie. You know, like, Annie, my wife. Right? So we started dating in high school, and she always wanted to live back home. And I wanted to, like, go to some, like, forgotten about island and teach people to scuba dive. Like, that's what I wanted to do. 00;36;49;03 - 00;37;08;29 Kelsey Timmerman Right? That's probably what I'd be doing if it weren't for her. So I've had this awesome home base, and Annie's an awesome home base, and the kids, and, and thankfully, I'm able to still scratch that travel itch and learn about the world in other places and kind of leave the monoculture that exists in the Midwest a little bit. 00;37;09;02 - 00;37;32;22 Kelsey Timmerman Although I think that there are people - and more and more so - that are making this, the Midwest, more interesting place to live. You know, like I'm all about “Midwest against the world,” you know, love those T-shirts. Right? And yeah. So but being part of a place now, we've lived at our current place for ten years, and it's 20 acres. 00;37;32;22 - 00;37;36;19 Kelsey Timmerman It has, like, a pond that has become a swamp because the beaver have left. 00;37;36;21 - 00;37;38;11 J.R. Jamison Jamison: And you write about it in the book. [Laughs] 00;37;38;12 - 00;37;40;20 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: I don't know if you don't get me started on beaver, J.R.. 00;37;40;23 - 00;37;47;00 J.R. Jamison Jamison: We don't have time to talk about the beaver today. But yes, get the book because you talk about the beaver in the book. 00;37;47;01 - 00;37;56;17 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: Yeah. I'm obsessed with trying to, to woo beaver back, to build a dam at our pond. And they get closer and closer all the time, but... 00;37;56;20 - 00;37;57;06 J.R. Jamison Jamison: You’re almost there. 00;37;57;08 - 00;38;19;04 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: So just exploring, like, the woods that we live in and getting to know the different nooks and crannies and swamps, I discovered that we have a fen which is a certain type of, like, anaerobic decomposition that happens and it's kind of- it’s mud that's regulated; like, the, the Tylenol and- owns, like, Bayar owns fens for their Tylenol, and also used in makeup. 00;38;19;05 - 00;38;25;00 Kelsey Timmerman I couldn't, I couldn't sell this mud. I could get in trouble if I sold. I never knew mud was valuable in that way. Right? 00;38;25;02 - 00;38;26;17 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Yeah. It's a cosmetic. 00;38;26;18 - 00;38;41;22 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: Yeah. And so getting to know it and having animals on the farm. So we have chickens now, and we have- we've had sheep at one point in time. Really got to know the neighbors well because they'd always- my sheep would get out. I was the county's worst shepherd, [laughter] and it was awesome. 00;38;41;29 - 00;38;44;06 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Cops showing up at your door, right? 00;38;44;08 - 00;39;03;26 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: Yeah, they literally did one night. I'm like, “Why are there flashing lights in their driveway?” “Do you own sheep?” And I'm like, in my, like, underwear, you know, like, “Yeah, I own sheep. I'll be right out,” you know, and then kind of, thankfully I live on a road that doesn't have much traffic. So, but it's a great way to kind of get reconnected to a place. 00;39;03;26 - 00;39;24;09 Kelsey Timmerman And just like recently, we always have done walks to the Mississinewa river, which is very close to us, and we sometimes we get in it. And just like in the last four days, my son has walked to it twice, and we get in the river and his face comes out, and he's got dirt all over his- He's starting to get a little mustache, kind of a wispy teenager mustache. 00;39;24;10 - 00;39;24;21 J.R. Jamison Jamison: He's got mud in it. [Laughter] 00;39;24;21 - 00;39;41;29 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: And he’s got, like, dirt in it, you know, he looks like a pirate all of a sudden. And so that's just an awesome thing to be able to share. To start to grow roots and get to know a place in different seasons. So kind of back to your question of, like, what can people in the cities do as well? 00;39;42;00 - 00;39;59;16 Kelsey Timmerman Like, you could get to know a park, a tree, a river, what it looks like in different seasons. And, you know, I had to observe our place for a long time before I still could really kind of know where would I want to plant an orchard, or where would- should an orchard belong? What type of trees want to grow here, you know? 00;39;59;18 - 00;40;18;16 Kelsey Timmerman And how can I help the walnut trees grow up in this area and let them grow? And now they're like 15ft tall and like, of course, over ten years, and just spending time on it, walking and getting to know it. And I just- it's been one of the most rewarding things of my life. I still love to travel. 00;40;18;16 - 00;40;45;26 Kelsey Timmerman I still will travel for other projects, I'm sure, but getting to know a place and be part of a community - well that's the Muncie community, like with people, or that's like the, the rooted community of, of that- of our property. And I hate to say it's our property. We're, like, the current caretakers on it, right? Like, the sycamore trees that are on it, which are some of my favorite trees, will be on it long after us and someone else owns it. 00;40;45;26 - 00;40;49;04 Kelsey Timmerman And I think about, well, who will want to take care of it then? 00;40;49;05 - 00;40;55;23 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Yeah, well, you got to mentor someone, right? You got to find that younger person who's going to take over the land after, after you. 00;40;55;24 - 00;40;57;16 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: And that could be my kids, you know. 00;40;57;16 - 00;40;57;29 J.R. Jamison Jamison: It could be. 00;40;58;00 - 00;40;59;04 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: Might not be. Who knows? 00;40;59;05 - 00;41;10;02 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Yeah. Kelsey Timmerman, it was so great to have you in studio again, sitting with me, just having a conversation about life, really. [Laughs] 00;41;10;03 - 00;41;15;13 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: I’m glad you could take some time away from hugging your tree in your backyard to interview me, J.R.. I appreciate it. 00;41;15;13 - 00;41;37;20 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Thanks for letting me be an early reader of the book. I loved it, it's excellent. I think everyone should take time with it and think about what river do they come from? What is their land? How do they connect to the earth? Because we all do. In this book, “Regenerating Earth: Farmers Working with Nature to Feed Our Future,” is out now from Patagonia wherever books are borrowed and sold. 00;41;37;21 - 00;41;58;12 J.R. Jamison Next up, Kelsey takes back the mic and is joined by a former tech entrepreneur and now regenerative Indiana farmer, Chris Baggot. Stay with us. [Meditative acoustic guitar music] 00;41;58;15 - 00;42;10;27 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: You're listening to The Facing Project and I'm Kelsey Timmerman. I'm joined today by Chris Baggot. Chris is the owner and founder of Tyner Pond Farm, a regenerative farm in Greenfield, Indiana. Chris, welcome to The Facing Project. 00;42;10;27 - 00;42;12;22 Chris Baggot Baggot: Thank you so much. I really appreciate being here. 00;42;12;22 - 00;42;23;18 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: So what was- We're both kind of wet from the rain. What was your- [laughing] Yeah. You reached out to me this morning and said, “Oh my gosh, I'm coming up from the field,” or whatever. So what was your morning like? 00;42;23;23 - 00;42;46;11 Chris Baggot Baggot: Yeah, I mean, basically, you know, we rotate our animals, we raise cattle and chicken on our farm and they move every single day. So we've got to move them. You know, we use poly wire for our cattle. We run a system called total grazing where we want them to graze every blade of everything in front of them. So that means very small paddocks, high stocking density. 00;42;46;11 - 00;43;07;22 Chris Baggot So being out there and moving. A lot of my work, too, is on the social media side and the marketing side. You know, we're from, you know, as my wife used to say, “birth to bun.” But we, you know, raise the animals, we process the animals with a neighbor processor, and we sell them directly to the consumers. So I spent a lot of time online doing that sort of thing, too. 00;43;07;23 - 00;43;18;12 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: And I see your son on social media. He's always out there moving the cattle, doing awesome videos. So take us into, like, the sensory experience of what it's like on your farm. 00;43;18;14 - 00;43;37;27 Chris Baggot Baggot: Well it's beautiful. That's a great question. It's beautiful. It's- every single day, even a day like this where it's raining, like, we love the rain, obviously. Cool temperatures that we have today, you know, the ideal grass growing temperature is in the 60s. A little bit of moisture, a little bit of sunshine. You know, we've had a fantastic spring. 00;43;37;27 - 00;43;57;09 Chris Baggot So, you know, that's what you're thinking about. There are some famous farmers, you know, like Will Harris and, and Gabe Brown who talk about, you know - they were conventional farmers before - and they talk about ‘cides, you know, and, “Every day I used to wake up,” - this is Gabe Brown - but, “Wake up thinking about killing something. Fungicide, pesticide, herbicide.” 00;43;57;12 - 00;43;58;19 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: What's the threat today? Right? 00;43;58;19 - 00;44;20;13 Chris Baggot Baggot: Yeah, exactly. And you know, now, we regenerative farmers, we're thinking about life every day. And we're looking at it and the bounty. And we see the insects, and we see the flocks of birds and the, the, the noise of nature where we are. So - sorry to ramble - but, it's a great question because sensory, you know, it's, it's spectacular. 00;44;20;13 - 00;44;28;13 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: So how- what was your land like before you started? Because I'm assuming that it was not regeneratively farmed when you started. 00;44;28;14 - 00;44;58;06 Chris Baggot Baggot: Right. So we, we have six farms in Hancock County that we have acquired over the years. Our first farm, our original Tyner Pond, if you will, we bought 15 years ago. They- all the farms were corn and soybean before we got there. So basically, soil, as a medium, very devoid of any biological activity or life. You know, they just were something to hold up the plant and, and dependent on chemical agriculture. 00;44;58;06 - 00;45;07;00 Chris Baggot So that's a slow, slow process to convert land that is basically like strip mine, you know, into a thriving ecosystem. 00;45;07;02 - 00;45;25;09 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: Yeah. I'm shocked by the farmland that is around my home, how, like, this time of year, it's being planted kind of late this year because it's been so wet. But before it gets planted in the spring, it's like, I feel like it's like a desert, like, some of the places, like, weeds won't even grow. And it's, like, to have bare ground, right, 00;45;25;11 - 00;45;32;27 Kelsey Timmerman were, like, a weed won't grow now is shocking to me because I see through a new kind of world view now. 00;45;33;00 - 00;46;07;04 Chris Baggot Baggot: Right. And you and I are both fans of Allan Savory. And you know, in his famous TED Talk, he shows a map of desertification in the world. And, you know, Indiana is on that map, right? Because if you're running a satellite over our state anytime but June through August, there's nothing there. And, you know, if you look down and you see the plant density, you know, that ground, even though it looks green with corn growing on it or soybeans, it's still mostly just bare soil, which is, you know, the opposite of regenerative. 00;46;07;05 - 00;46;10;22 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: Yeah. Have you ever looked at your property on Google Maps? 00;46;10;23 - 00;46;29;25 Chris Baggot Baggot: Oh I did, I just posted something which is really interesting because, you know, we rotate our chickens, and the Google map currently of our farm, which is our original farm - we call it the 200 farm because it's on 200 South - but you can see on the satellite, you can see the tracks of our chicken tractors marching across the field. 00;46;29;26 - 00;46;40;14 Chris Baggot Right? It's like, you know, wow, that's really cool because you can you can literally see the path, you know, you can prove that we're moving our chickens every day. So yeah, I thought that was really interesting. 00;46;40;16 - 00;47;03;02 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: I recently looked at it, my property, on just the directions view, which just like colors, you know? And like mine is like green, and I'm surrounded by, like, yellow, like light yellow. And I took so much pride, and I'm not doing nearly what you're doing. I'm just letting some places grow up and had a couple sheep and some chickens and things like that. 00;47;03;03 - 00;47;08;28 Kelsey Timmerman Right? But it is amazing to see how much land can be turned around when you give it that kind of attention. 00;47;09;00 - 00;47;27;03 Chris Baggot Baggot: It's just, this is all on the shoulders of the consumer, right? You know, they're picking the food. They're the ones that decide how we farm. So, you know, I never blame a farmer for growing corn and soybeans. This is customer driven. And the more people that support us, you know, we started with 75 acres 15 years ago. Now we're pushing 900 acres. 00;47;27;04 - 00;47;27;13 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: Wow. 00;47;27;15 - 00;47;42;11 Chris Baggot Baggot: That's all consumer driven, right? If we didn't have the demand, we wouldn't be rehabbing these farms. And if consumer wants better environment, they need to support more local farms and more farmers will stand up and say, “Yeah, I'll grow whatever you tell me to grow, customer.” 00;47;42;12 - 00;48;05;15 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: One of the things that J.R. and I talked about in the earlier interview was that the, the price of farmland is so much, people can barely even afford to farm it. Like, it doesn't make sense to me that a hundred acres could be like $1/2 to $2 million cost that much, and yet you might make $400 per acre growing soybeans on it, and half the time you'll lose money. 00;48;05;17 - 00;48;23;09 Chris Baggot Baggot: We're renting it. You know, most farmland is rented, right, in Indiana, so somebody else owns it. You know, I used to look at these solar panel, like, “no solar” signs and be like, well, who be against this, you know? Well, it turns out it's the farmer who's renting that land, right? Like they're very susceptible for that use change. 00;48;23;09 - 00;48;45;01 Chris Baggot And but yeah, the cost of land is, is, is crazy. I don't know if I could do what we were doing that we started 15 years ago. Even, you know, our last farm we bought was 157 acres. And that was right before Covid. So, you know, 2020, I believe. And, you know, you know, I don't know how sustainable these prices are. 00;48;45;03 - 00;48;46;12 Chris Baggot And yeah. 00;48;46;13 - 00;48;56;14 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: I want to talk a little bit about what your life was like before you started farming, when you went down the farming rabbit hole, right? Because it was like I think it was vastly different? 00;48;56;16 - 00;49;08;04 Chris Baggot Baggot: Yeah. I mean, it was, it was similar in that it was entrepreneurial, you know, mostly started my life in the corporate world. I'm old. I'm about to turn 65 here in a month. 00;49;08;06 - 00;49;10;25 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: Which is just like the average age of the American farmer. 00;49;10;27 - 00;49;12;13 Chris Baggot Baggot: Exactly, I’m in the sweet spot [laughs]. 00;49;12;14 - 00;49;13;14 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: I mean you’re young; you’re 64. You’re 64; you’re a young farmer. 00;49;13;18 - 00;49;37;06 Chris Baggot Baggot: Exactly. Yeah, but I was in the technology business for the most part. You know, I was very, very lucky to be a co-founder of a company called Exact Target, which we were able to IPO and then sold to Salesforce, the Salesforce Tower, which is a Salesforce marketing cloud as a company we started. I had a company called Compendium Software, which was acquired by Oracle. Along the way, 00;49;37;07 - 00;49;43;23 Chris Baggot I'm also a co-founder of Cluster Truck, which is still an ongoing operation. I'm just not involved in the day to day anymore. 00;49;43;23 - 00;49;46;13 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: And that’s like software for farmers, right? 00;49;46;14 - 00;50;08;05 Chris Baggot No, Cluster Truck is a delivery only restaurant concept. We have three locations in Indy, one in Kansas City and one in Columbus. It's a franchise where we actually cook the food and deliver the food. But, you know, along the way I read The Omnivore's Dilemma. Michael Pollan, the hero of that book was Joel Salatin. So that was my rabbit hole. 00;50;08;08 - 00;50;10;27 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: Known as, like, the lunatic farmer. That’s what he calls himself, right? 00;50;10;28 - 00;50;11;11 Chris Baggot Baggot: Exactly. Yeah, no totally. 00;50;11;14 - 00;50;13;26 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: Farms vastly different, with the chicken tractors and all that stuff. 00;50;13;27 - 00;50;36;28 Chris Baggot Baggot: Exactly. And that was, you know, he started with a book called “You Can Farm,” and, you know, so from Michael Pollan to Joel Salatin rabbit hole to, you know, our incredible good fortune with our companies. You know, my wife and I and our family were just sort of thinking about, you know, philanthropy, almost like, what can we do? 00;50;36;28 - 00;51;02;24 Chris Baggot And as an entrepreneur and someone that is manic about control, donating to charities did not seem like the right thing for us. And, you know, as we learned more about regenerative agriculture and got exposed to Allan Savory, we thought, we can do this, right? Like, let's, let's save land. Let's protect the environment ourselves versus, you know, sending money to the Nature Conservancy or something like that. 00;51;02;25 - 00;51;15;17 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: So in terms of like quality of life or just your day to day routine, like, how was- because I imagine your life before, like you were in a lot of meetings in, in rooms... 00;51;15;19 - 00;51;16;10 Chris Baggot Baggot: Oh, 100% 00;51;16;11 - 00;51;19;11 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: ...and staring at the computer and looking at numbers. 00;51;19;18 - 00;51;39;24 Chris Baggot Baggot: Well I get to work every single day - there're essentially three families involved in our business with a couple of other people - but I'm working with my wife every single day. My son, who, you know, pretty much graduated high school the year we started farming, is now 30, and he's running our farm office. 00;51;39;25 - 00;51;40;21 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: He seems to love it. 00;51;40;23 - 00;52;01;29 Chris Baggot Baggot: He does love it. And he's really, really good at it. And, you know, it's interesting to think about having to think about a business multi-generational now, because in the startup world, you know, you're like, yeah, we're going to run this thing for 5 or 8 years and we're going to sell it to somebody, flip it, you know, and you know, now farm, I've got to think about grandchildren, you know. 00;52;02;00 - 00;52;24;17 Chris Baggot And how do we make decisions today that are going to not screw things up 50 years from now? So, you know, getting to work with that, you know, the woman who runs our, our operations and fulfillment, you know, I've worked with her on and off for 35 years. Like, she's like family. And now her husband's on the team, and her her niece is on the team. 00;52;24;17 - 00;52;45;12 Chris Baggot And, you know, so it's a family business which is, which is great. And we have the Cox family as well, you know, and just, it's just super intimate. I never have to leave Greenfield. You know, I used to commute to the circle every single day for 30 years almost. You know, now I feel like a hermit, you know, which is- I love it. 00;52;45;17 - 00;52;56;09 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: So a lot of farms are, have- are transitioning or are going to in the next- Joel Salatin has a stat about this I can't remember. Do you know, remember what he says about it? Like, the number... 00;52;56;10 - 00;52;57;22 Chris Baggot Baggot: Oh, about aging out, you mean? 00;52;57;23 - 00;52;58;20 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: Yeah, the number of farmers... 00;52;58;22 - 00;53;00;15 Chris Baggot Baggot: Yeah, I’m not sure what the number is, but it’s huge. 00;53;00;17 - 00;53;32;20 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: It’s significant. It's like well over 50% of farmland is going to transition in the next like 15 or 20 years or maybe even sooner than that. And so I find it interesting. You're thinking more, even, long term. And one of the farmers we talked about in the earlier segment was a guy that didn't have someone to pass it down to, and he put an ad on Craigslist and found someone, because it wasn't just about, it was about the work and the connection with the place and wanted to, to live on and not just be converted into something that he didn't want to do. 00;53;32;21 - 00;53;36;12 Kelsey Timmerman There's Wes Jackson at the Land Institute. I don’t know if you know of Wes Jackson. 00;53;36;17 - 00;53;38;04 Chris Baggot Baggot: I know of him, but I’ve not met him. 00;53;38;04 - 00;53;42;29 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: He says, like, if you are- if your goal can be accomplished in your lifetime, you're thinking too small. 00;53;43;00 - 00;54;15;01 Chris Baggot Baggot: Yeah. No, it definitely is. It's, it's, again, you asked about the the sense of being there, but, you know, just the totality of the land and the biology and the insects and the birds and the fungi and the family and the people and just all the lives, just in this little unit of 900, out of, what, 14 million acres in Indiana that's under agriculture? You know, and just that impact, you know, in the community, it's just amazing. 00;54;15;06 - 00;54;23;19 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: Almost sounds like you discovered a whole other world, like, before grass was grass, right? But now you probably know different types of grasses and the insects that are in there, and how it looks healthy or unhealthy. 00;54;23;20 - 00;54;43;15 Chris Baggot Baggot: Exactly. It's something I'm always trying to, you know, come up on. But, you know, I mean, we're in an insect crisis. We're in a bird crisis, like. Like, you know, you start breaking these down. We're in a fungal crisis. And, you know, I saw a post yesterday on our little Greenfield gabber on Facebook, you know, “How do I get rid of mushrooms in my yard?” 00;54;43;15 - 00;54;47;21 Chris Baggot And everyone's like, “What are you talking about? Why would you want to do that?” 00;54;47;21 - 00;54;51;01 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: “I just want all those blades of grass to look exactly the same, you know?” 00;54;51;05 - 00;54;51;20 Chris Baggot Baggot: [Laughs] Exactly, yeah. 00;54;51;22 - 00;54;56;25 Chris Baggot So there's a lot of education that still needs to be done, but there's also a lot of people that are coming on board. 00;54;56;25 - 00;55;13;12 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: So in the course of my research, it seemed like everyone sort of had a different definition of regenerative agriculture. So kind of like, what is your working definition, or what does that definition look like on your farm to your family? 00;55;13;15 - 00;55;47;11 Chris Baggot Baggot: Well, for us, you know, it's about soil life primarily. So every decision we make - because we believe nutrition comes from soil life, biological cycling, mineral cycling, water cycling. So, you know, there's the basic definitions of continual ground cover, animal impact. You know, ours is no chemicals ever. No drugs ever. You know, if you give your cow an antibiotic, 80% of those antibiotics pass through the animal into their feces 00;55;47;11 - 00;56;15;15 Chris Baggot in ura- in urine. By definition, it's an antibiotic passing into the soil. So what happens to your soil biology? Right? And people are against antibiotics for lots and lots of good reasons: overuse, and antibiotic resistant bacteria and things like that. But, you know, the simple thing is, if my mission is soil biology, I cannot put an antibiotic on my soil, right? Just can't happen, you know? 00;56;15;17 - 00;56;34;29 Chris Baggot So any chemical fertilizers, right? You are not regenerative if you're using any kind of monoculture. You're not regenerative if you're using any kind of chemical fertilizer. You're not regenerative using any kind of antibiotics. Like, we're very, very strict about that. So our definition of regenerative is probably a lot stricter than a lot of other people. 00;56;34;29 - 00;56;51;12 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: Yeah. I mean now there are certifications. It seems like, you know- you mentioned Gary Brown, his organization has one. Will Harris, his one is, like, restarting the broken cycles of nature. Right. Some of them you just mentioned, and, and he was, like, there are cycles that we don't even know about. Like, we're just learning about them. 00;56;51;14 - 00;57;10;21 Chris Baggot Baggot: Exactly. We don't understand it. Like, we know what a tiny fraction of the biology we can see, right? You can take a teaspoon of soil, and there's a billion life forms in that soil. Take a teaspoon of corn farm, and there's nothing. Right? So, you know, even when I'm talking to Christians, you know, like, you know, like, do you think God makes a mistake? 00;57;10;22 - 00;57;16;19 Chris Baggot Like, did God say, “Oh, I really didn't need that billion different life form in that soil?” No. 00;57;16;20 - 00;57;17;18 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: And there's literally none... 00;57;17;20 - 00;57;19;11 Chris Baggot Baggot: Nature doesn't make mistakes. Yeah, there’s none. 00;57;19;12 - 00;57;30;04 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: And the other one, there's none. It's like absolutely lifeless. That's I feel like I go out and scoop up a handful of soil near my house this time of year, and it just seems like a desert. 00;57;30;05 - 00;57;47;18 Chris Baggot Baggot: Right. And that's the thing, right? So, you know, you get to ultra processed foods and, and, you know, just wheat, right? You think about that. And you know what's different in our diet? Why are we so unhealthy? Well, you know, “I'm eating whole wheat bread.” Well, where's that wheat grown? Right? Like, what was the soil like? Well, it was a monoculture. 00;57;47;18 - 00;57;57;27 Chris Baggot It's wheat every single year. It's somewhere in Kansas. It's probably irrigated, you know, like it's chemically propped up. There is no biology. It's not the same wheat, you know, so. 00;57;58;04 - 00;58;06;29 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: You know, and it seems like the regenerative farmers I met are kind of inserting themselves into these cycles, or noticing them, or helping, helping get them going. 00;58;07;01 - 00;58;38;19 Chris Baggot Baggot: I mean, the opportunity here is, is the internet, right? Because the problem is, historically, farmers had to work through a grocery system. Right? So lots of middle men, concepts of brands and scale and efficiency. And those became the primary criteria. I do the analogy of the music industry a lot. You know, if you think about music again, back in my day, you basically had a choice of about 5000 songs. 00;58;38;19 - 00;59;00;28 Chris Baggot Your music was curated for you by something called “The Radio.” And in your town there were 2 or 3 stations, and if your songs didn't make it on the radio, you never heard them. And if you went to buy music to consume by yourself, you had to go to a place to buy them. And that music store decided what songs you were going to be offered. 00;59;00;29 - 00;59;21;06 Chris Baggot Along comes online music. So now instead of 5000 songs, we have over 5 million songs to choose from. But what that's done, you know, if you're familiar with the concept of “long tail,” what that done- what that’s- What that's done at the bottom of the long tail is empower thousands and thousands and thousands of musicians to make a living. 00;59;21;07 - 00;59;40;03 Chris Baggot Right? And, you know, used to be if you were not on the radio, you were going to play in a Holiday Inn for a couple of years and then go get a real job. And now thousands and thousands of artists can participate and make a living, you know, because of online access. And the same thing is happening with food. 00;59;40;04 - 00;59;57;27 Chris Baggot You know, we sell direct to the consumer. The more the consumer gets used to ordering online, the less the consumer becomes dependent on Kroger curating their food for them. Right? Now, I can buy my meat from Tyner Pond. I can buy my vegetables from Very Good Farms or Shanti Farms. These are Greenfield farms and... 00;59;57;27 - 01;00;00;19 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: You support- you support other farms too, right? Like you deliver... 01;00;00;19 - 01;00;27;18 Chris Baggot Baggot: Well, buying the food I want. I'm making the decision about my food, not Kroger. Right? Not global monopolies. And you know, that's freeing up this entire opportunity. Like, food is the biggest industry in the world. And, and there's lots and lots of room. You know, we don't ship, we deliver. We only serve central Indiana. So including Muncie in this area, there's $8.8 billion worth of meat eaten in Indiana. 01;00;27;19 - 01;00;46;15 Chris Baggot I don't need all of that. I couldn't do it. I need a tiny little piece to make my little farm and our system and our families, you know, have a good life. You know, we pay full health insurance to everyone who works for us. Like, no co-pays, no, nothing like it's, it's, it's- It's an incredibly high quality of life. 01;00;46;17 - 01;00;48;14 Chris Baggot And that's all thanks to the consumer. 01;00;48;15 - 01;01;12;17 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: Yeah. When I think about what's happening to farming friends and families who are conventional farmers now, they're often thinking that they're going to either have to buy more land or just get out. Right? And a lot of them think that if eventually it's going to be large corporations that own all the land, and, you know, they higher farmers to work on the land, right? 01;01;12;17 - 01;01;15;11 Kelsey Timmerman So there's like this disconnect between like owning and working. 01;01;15;13 - 01;01;16;17 Chris Baggot Timmerman: And robots, right? 01;01;16;19 - 01;01;17;03 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: Yeah right. I mean... 01;01;17;05 - 01;01;45;10 Chris Baggot Baggot: I mean, that's- we're five years away from that, right? I might have robots on my farm. I don't know. But, you know, but, you know, the- The bigger threat to farming conventionally, which is now just corn and soybeans, is demand, right? You know, what is corn good for? You know, that's the thing that people have to understand is not that my steak costs 25% more than a steak you could buy at Whole Foods. 01;01;45;10 - 01;01;58;06 Chris Baggot It's overall you're going to eat less. It's going to be better for you. You're going to spend less on vitamins. You're going to spend less on hospitals and pharmaceuticals and, you know, prescriptions. 01;01;58;08 - 01;02;10;25 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: And to bring this back full circle here, as we wrap up, when you've had people come out to your farm and see and feel and experience the sensory of that, what kind of things are they saying? 01;02;11;02 - 01;02;29;16 Chris Baggot Baggot: Well, I think they're saying just that, right, is just they can see the difference, right? And they can feel part of it. And, you know, we get a lot of kids out. You know, we had young family helping us with roundup that I think there was a six, three and two, you know. And you know, they're on the ground and they're getting dirty. 01;02;29;16 - 01;02;50;22 Chris Baggot And you know, that's part of the other thing about childhood illnesses and, you know, is, you know, kids aren't getting dirty enough, right? They're not getting their hands in there. And, you know, we're like, bring your home school class or whoever, just picnic, sit there in the dirt, sit there and there's no dirt. It's all grass. But you know, you know, just get down there in it. 01;02;50;25 - 01;03;09;08 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: Well, I know Allan Savory walks around barefoot [chuckles] a lot on his property just to experience it, to be even closer to it. And I think that is something that seems to be lost in our in our culture of the getting your hands dirty- the smell of dirt, you know, experiencing a place, and being aware of it. 01;03;09;10 - 01;03;33;16 Chris Baggot Baggot: Right, exactly. And biologically rich. Right? Exposing ourselves to more, you know, I don't know. There are all kinds of statistics that we probably don't have any time to talk about, but people can look this up. But, you know, percentage of time spent indoors by kids is is crazy, right? And, you know, we need to get outside and, you know, even like organized sports. 01;03;33;16 - 01;03;43;01 Chris Baggot And they call that being outside. But it's also on this chemically treated, you know, you know, and you know, and we're the opposite of all that. 01;03;43;04 - 01;03;47;16 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: All right. Any final words to consumers of how they can be more regenerative? 01;03;47;18 - 01;04;02;08 Chris Baggot Baggot: Well I mean, from the consumer, as I said, this is the consumer's choice, right? Like, you know, if you want a better, cleaner world with more biology, more insects, more birds, more nature, more nutrition, then you have to support local farmers. 01;04;02;09 - 01;04;04;27 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: Yeah. And I'm not only the interviewer, I'm a customer. 01;04;04;29 - 01;04;05;24 Chris Baggot Baggot: Thank you very much. 01;04;05;24 - 01;04;09;19 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: Yeah. Chris Baggot, owner and founder of Tyner Pond Farm, thanks for coming on. 01;04;09;21 - 01;04;11;12 Chris Baggot Baggot: No, it's my pleasure. Thank you for having me. 01;04;11;13 - 01;04;15;06 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: Great. Awesome. [Theme music] 01;04;15;08 - 01;04;25;14 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Thank you again, Kelsey, for joining me on today's show. And to your publisher, Patagonia, for providing a complimentary copy of “Regenerating Earth: Farmers Working with Nature to Feed Our Future.” 01;04;25;14 - 01;04;30;29 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: And thanks to Chris Baggot for helping feed my family and for sitting down with me to share his story. 01;04;30;29 - 01;04;45;16 J.R. Jamison Jamison: To listen to past episodes of this program, visit IndianaPublicRadio.org/TheFacingProject, or find us on your favorite podcasting app, or on YouTube or on the NPR network. Or just ask your smart speaker to play The Facing Project on NPR. 01;04;45;17 - 01;04;51;12 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: To continue the conversation about this episode, find us on Facebook and Instagram at Facing Project. 01;04;51;13 - 01;05;06;15 J.R. Jamison Jamison: The Facing Project is recorded at Indiana Public Radio at Ball State University in beautiful and wonderful and evergreen Muncie, Indiana. It's produced by the amazing producer and audio engineer extraordinaire, Sean Ashcraft. The show is distributed nationally through PRX. 01;05;06;17 - 01;05;15;09 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: We’re your hosts, Kelsey Timmerman and J.R. Jamison. And until next time, we wish you the courage to share your own story and the empathy to listen to others. [Theme music fades]