Please note: Accuracy and availability of IPR transcripts may vary. 00;00;00;09 - 00;00;28;05 J.R. Jamison Jamison: I want you to think for a second about the last time you forgave someone. Was it hard? How did it make you feel? Or what about the person you forgave? I'm J.R. Jamison today on the facing project will explore these questions and more. And I'll share the story of a mother in Indiana who forgave the man who paralyzed her son in a car accident, and another from a woman in Kansas who forgave her once absent mother and abusive brother. 00;00;28;11 - 00;00;49;09 J.R. Jamison Later, I'll be joined by Dr. Robert Enright, who is named by time magazine as the top researcher on forgiveness. Stay with us as we discuss the psychology of forgiveness. 00;00;49;11 - 00;01;15;14 J.R. Jamison Forgiveness is a word that is sometimes thrown around a lot. In fact, when I was growing up at a religiously conservative community, I heard you must ask for forgiveness every time the church doors were open, which in my case was Wednesday night, Saturday night, Sunday morning and Sunday night. And during the in-between times when I wasn't in church, I heard the phrase from those around me every day. 00;01;15;16 - 00;01;39;14 J.R. Jamison It was almost like forgiveness was a word I couldn't escape, whether it was my mom and dad, grandparents, teachers. I couldn't get far without someone saying something like, your brother said he was sorry. You need to forgive him for good little boys. Don't act that way. Say you're sorry for what you did. And for the record, it must be stated that I was a pretty good kid. 00;01;39;15 - 00;02;05;14 J.R. Jamison Well, most days. But anyhow, the older I got, forgiveness began to feel like an everyday motion with little meaning. And there were many instances when I said, I forgive you and I didn't mean it. Honestly, the words meant nothing. Typically, these were pains of the heart. Times when friends or loved ones talked behind my back or stole for me, or cheated on me, and being taught to forgive. 00;02;05;15 - 00;02;29;00 J.R. Jamison I did just that. Sort of because like I said, words are cheap, but actions go deep. That was until 2013 when I met the late Evercore for the first time. If you don't know who Eva was. Do me a quick favor and Google her. But if you aren't willing or able to do that, I'll give you a quick history. 00;02;29;03 - 00;02;50;25 J.R. Jamison Eva was a Holocaust survivor when she was five years old. She and her twin sister Miriam, along with their mother and father and two older sisters, were forced from their home in what is present day Romania by the Nazis and eventually taken to Auschwitz, where the twins were separated from their family. She and Miriam never saw them again. 00;02;50;27 - 00;03;20;13 J.R. Jamison During their time at Auschwitz, Eva and Miriam fell into the hands of Doctor Minghella, who conducted research studies on twins for Adolf Hitler. And by research, I don't mean simple observations. I'm talking about torture. I'll leave the details to your Google search. Miraculously, though, even Miriam survived and were liberated by the Red Army in January of 1945. So fast forward to 2013. 00;03;20;15 - 00;03;42;24 J.R. Jamison Eva was on a speaking tour to promote her book, surviving the Angel of Death The True Story of a Mangla Twin in Auschwitz. It was coauthored by Lisa Rosen, and Eva made her way through my community. I gathered in the packed 4000 seat auditorium and watched from the nosebleeds as this little old woman shared what was done to her and her family. 00;03;42;29 - 00;04;13;08 J.R. Jamison And let me tell you, there wasn't a dry eye in that audience. And then she said something that was almost unbelievable. She forgave the Nazis and Doctor Minghella for everything that had been done to her. You could have heard a pin drop in that cavernous space, but trust me, she was sincere. I got the wonderful opportunity to get to know Eva and spend quality time with her in 2016 and again in 2018, and she was the real deal. 00;04;13;11 - 00;04;50;06 J.R. Jamison She made it her life mission to convince others that forgiveness is necessary for healing. In her own words, she said, forgiveness is not so much for the perpetrator, but for the victim. Eva spent the remainder of her life traveling the world and promoting forgiveness until the day she died, at the age of 85, in 2019. Getting to know and understand Eva made me realize that if this woman can forgive the Nazis for everything that was done to her and millions of others, forgiveness can be more than an everyday word without meaning. 00;04;50;08 - 00;05;13;15 J.R. Jamison It can be life altering. So today we'll explore forgiveness. I'll share the stories of two women, one who forgave the man who paralyzed her son in a car accident, and another who forgave her once absent mother and abusive brother. And then I'll be joined by Doctor Robert Enright, who was named by time magazine as the leading researcher on the psychology behind forgiveness. 00;05;13;15 - 00;05;27;06 J.R. Jamison And he and I will talk about the science and emotional and physiological impact of sincere apologies and acceptance due to strong language and content that may be disturbing to some. Listener discretion is advised. 00;05;27;08 - 00;05;53;05 Katy Wolfe Wolfe: Stopping to Forgive: Greg Zgunda’s story as told to Stephanie Fisher by his mother, Beverly Zgunda. Performed by Katy Wolfe. If I told you, take it one day at a time. What does that mean to you? What does you need to forgive mean? It meant nothing to me years ago until I experienced it. We learned the meaning of those cliches. 00;05;53;09 - 00;06;20;01 Katy Wolfe Me, my husband John, my son Greg and my family. A day at a time. Days in the hospital. Days waiting for a little boy to wake up from a coma. Days of physical therapy. Days of prayer. Days of joy. In a cottage. On a lake. With children and grandchildren. If you listen, I'll tell you the story of how I learned to take life one day at a time. 00;06;20;04 - 00;06;43;22 Katy Wolfe I'll tell you how I learned to forgive. But first, let me start with the present. Our days in retirement now seem busier than when we were young. In the morning, John takes care of Greg's breakfast and shower. Greg always wakes up at 6 a.m., and then I take care of his clothes and teeth, cleaning nails, all those little things. 00;06;43;25 - 00;07;11;07 Katy Wolfe Then John drives him to Hill Croft. He's been there for 36 years now. Greg has friends at Hill Croft. He had a girlfriend for a little while. We have dinner in the evenings together or go to a game. It's fall now. Volleyball season is coming up. The accident. It also happened in the fall, when Greg was 11. He was very, very bright. 00;07;11;09 - 00;07;35;11 Katy Wolfe A straight A student, high IQ. He was involved in church. In fact, he was a lector. Greg was in the hospital a year and a half. First he was taken to Parkview in Fort Wayne. Then he came here to Muncie to ball. Then he went to community. No, wait. First he went to Riley. It's hard to remember the timeline. 00;07;35;11 - 00;08;00;18 Katy Wolfe Exactly. He was unconscious for almost a year before he went to Riley. Then he went to rehab at Community East. When we brought him home, he was still in a wheelchair, still in diapers. But he made a lot of progress after we brought him home. Years of speech and occupational therapy and physical therapy. At that time, he went back to school at Morris and Mock. 00;08;00;19 - 00;08;25;11 Katy Wolfe The school had a wonderful physical therapist who worked there, Danny. I had a full sized van with a lift for his wheelchair, and when I went to pick him up from school one day, he he walked out to the van. Everybody was out there the whole school. It was a surprise because I didn't know he was walking. That was three years after we brought him home. 00;08;25;18 - 00;08;52;28 Katy Wolfe He was 16 when he learned to walk again. Now, if we go somewhere like a volleyball game, we take his wheelchair. But here at home, Greg can walk with assistance. We're really thankful. He understands most things and has an even tempered personality. He's social happy. He likes to be with people. Greg only speaks about 12 words, but he understands everything. 00;08;53;01 - 00;09;10;29 Katy Wolfe We have a lot to be thankful for. When he was in the hospital, we had a tape recorder playing right by his ear all the time with our voices and his brother's voices. We wanted him to have as much stimulation as possible. You know, the nurses were in and out, and the doctors only saw him once a day. 00;09;10;29 - 00;09;31;12 Katy Wolfe So we saw things before they did. And then one day, I was sitting in his room and he had some toy trucks on a tray up high. He was reaching for them. I said, are you trying to get those, Greg? And of course, he couldn't say anything. So I handed the toy trucks to him and I could tell he was glad. 00;09;31;15 - 00;09;51;13 Katy Wolfe I would tell the nurses and they would chart it. And the doctors, they would shake their heads and say that didn't happen. We read articles that said the more stimulation they have, the better. And so that's what we did. We asked the nurses if Greg could be taken outside on a gurney. There was a fountain in the courtyard. 00;09;51;18 - 00;10;14;04 Katy Wolfe They were happy to do it. They were wonderful. But of course, you have to have an order from the doctor. The nurses would say. We've asked the doctors and they won't give an order. They think it's insane. They think it's silly. So John called the doctor. And honest to God, they went round and around and around. They did. 00;10;14;06 - 00;10;41;11 Katy Wolfe The doctor wasn't even nice about it. He said, all right, you're order. And he did. It wasn't two weeks after they started taking him outside that you could see him coming around. Was it a coincidence? Was it timing or did it help? I still don't know. And the doctors realized, you know what? He's coming out of this coma. 00;10;41;14 - 00;11;07;08 Katy Wolfe But, yeah, the accident itself. We haven't talked about that yet. Greg was with a group of Boy Scouts. They were coming back from camp. It was a station wagon loaded down with kids. This was before minivans. The scout leader ran a stop sign at highway three and 218. I have asked him this many times. Greg, did you see the car coming? 00;11;07;09 - 00;11;32;11 Katy Wolfe Do you remember? Yes. He remembers it. Greg and his friend EJ had an argument that day over who got to sit by the door. Greg won the argument. You know, a lot of the kids and his friends shied away from Greg after the accident, but not E.J.. EJ would come over and he would take pictures of the two of them and develop the film himself. 00;11;32;13 - 00;12;00;18 Katy Wolfe Later he went to Notre Dame for college, but he would always come back and see Greg. The other car that hit them, the one that T-boned the Scoutmasters car. They were an older couple. They both died instantly. I really struggled with this Boy Scout leader for a long time, and I knew I had to forgive. We were taught in the Lord's Prayer that we have to forgive, but I just couldn't do it. 00;12;00;20 - 00;12;24;05 Katy Wolfe Someone told me, write a note. Tell him how you feel. I wrote him a note. So as far as he knew, I had forgiven him. But I didn't believe a word I said. Then one day, I ran a stop sign. It wasn't that long ago. Four years. Five. Maybe. I was coming back from church. I don't know what I was thinking about. 00;12;24;06 - 00;12;46;27 Katy Wolfe Preoccupied, I guess. These two Ball State students were going through the intersection. I'm in a big Tahoe, and they're in this little itty bitty thing. I about took the front end off of it. But you know what? Those girls were okay. If I had hit them further back in the car, I don't know what would have happened. It was my fault. 00;12;47;03 - 00;13;14;16 Katy Wolfe I told the police right away it was my fault. I felt horrible, but I forgave that Boy Scout leader immediately. I thought how quickly and how innocently something like that can happen. You know, when Greg was so critical, everyone told us. Take it a day at a time. That didn't have any meaning then. But almost 40 years later, we've had a rich life. 00;13;14;21 - 00;13;45;10 Katy Wolfe Work, friends, weddings, grandchildren and the lake. Family traditions have grown up around us. We say the lake is where we can pack a little luggage but leave our baggage behind. Perhaps another cliche, but it means everything to me. 00;13;45;12 - 00;14;10;07 Tiffany Erk Erk: What I Know About Me: An anonymous story as told to Bev Nye. Performed by Tiffany Erk. Back when I was just a little kid, my older brother and a couple of his friends decided to give me liquor. I guzzled it down faster than milk, but my brother's friend said, don't do that. What if she gets addicted? What will your mom say? 00;14;10;10 - 00;14;30;02 Tiffany Erk My brother told him our mama was out doing her own drug dealing. Besides, he thought I was her favorite, and that really pissed him off. Then when I was ten, mom and I were in a store and she was having me try on shoes before school started that fall. I remember her saying, put these shoes on and do it quietly. 00;14;30;04 - 00;14;52;10 Tiffany Erk I told mama they felt funny. She insisted they were fine and that we were going to walk out of that store. Just keep quiet. She said that Clark won't notice a thing if you don't call attention to yourself. Looking back at this now, I have to laugh. Two left shoes. That is what she made me shoplift that day. 00;14;52;11 - 00;15;20;13 Tiffany Erk Two left shoes. When I was 11, I walked in on mama, looking on the empty cupboards and talking to herself. There was nothing in there. We still had six more days until the welfare check came. But then the welfare check was never enough anyway. It was $400 and 300 of that went to rent. Mama said, how am I supposed to keep us living around here on $400 a month? 00;15;20;16 - 00;15;41;05 Tiffany Erk She sighed and told me to grab the ketchup, and she grabbed spaghetti noodles and we had the best supper ever. She taught me how to survive, and I don't blame her for selling drugs on the side to get us by. By the time I was 13, my brother had me prostituting myself in order to make more money for our family. 00;15;41;08 - 00;16;06;20 Tiffany Erk Yep, I sold my body. One good thing came out of that, though. My son Tom. I'm 35 years old now, and two years ago I looked in the mirror and realized I was poor and an addict, and I was so tired of being both. I told my girlfriend, Jane, that I had to quit using heroin and meth, but I wasn't sure how it was ever going to manage that. 00;16;06;22 - 00;16;37;02 Tiffany Erk But she kept telling me that I could get clean. A few weeks after quitting drugs, I felt terrible. I was freezing. Everything in my body was shaking. I kept saying, I don't think I can do this. I really wanted to go back on the drugs. Jane would hold my hair and wipe my face as I was vomiting. She kept encouraging me, telling me, no, you don't. 00;16;37;03 - 00;17;03;05 Tiffany Erk You can get free of the drugs and I will help. Neither of us wanted to go back to that kind of life again. I was so tired of being a slave to meth and heroin. I was so tired of not being able to pay our bills. I've been clean now for two years. I can make things happen. I'm a problem solver. 00;17;03;06 - 00;17;40;12 Tiffany Erk I got that from my mama. Honestly, my past molded me. If it wasn't for all the bad stuff, I wouldn't be where I am today. I have forgiven myself and others who have done me harm. And I have that forgiveness today because of my loving partner, Jane. Someday I want to be a drug and alcohol counselor, and someday I will. 00;17;40;14 - 00;18;05;00 J.R. Jamison Jamison: I want to welcome to the show Doctor Robert Enright, professor of educational psychology at the University of Wisconsin-Madison and co-founder of the International Forgiveness Institute. Doctor Enright is a pioneer in the scientific study of forgiveness, which now claims over 1000 researchers worldwide, and he is the author of seven books and over 100 publications centered on social development and the psychology of forgiveness. 00;18;05;07 - 00;18;17;04 J.R. Jamison Doctor Enright work has been featured in numerous print and visual outlets, including time magazine, the Los Angeles Times, the Chicago Tribune, and ABC's 2020. Doctor Enright. Thank you for joining me. 00;18;17;05 - 00;18;19;08 Dr. Robert Enright Enright: It's an honor to be with you. J.R.. 00;18;19;11 - 00;18;30;06 J.R. Jamison Jamison: I want to start with your research. You found that forgiveness can reduce anger, bitterness, resentment, depression, and can even create an overall healthier person. Tell me more. 00;18;30;10 - 00;18;54;10 Dr. Robert Enright Enright: Well, when we started this in 1985, much of psychotherapy dealt more with what I would call techniques. A way to think in a new way, make that which is unconscious conscious. And my thought was, but how do people climb up out of the pit when they've been deeply and unjustly treated by others? And the idea of forgiveness kept coming up for me. 00;18;54;12 - 00;19;18;21 Dr. Robert Enright And I thought, well, you know, this might be a very powerful way of healing, a resentment that can actually literally stay with us for the rest of our lives. But that was only an idea, because when I went to the library, then couldn't do a Google search in 1985, there were no published studies at all, ever in the 100 year history of psychology. 00;19;18;22 - 00;19;41;06 Dr. Robert Enright Wow. On the topic of forgiveness. So I started a for a Friday forgiveness seminar with a lot of students from different countries of the world, and we came up with a process for how to forgive and have done randomized experimental and control group research. And the rest is history. 00;19;41;12 - 00;19;54;11 J.R. Jamison Jamison: And so that change in attitude and physiology, that has to be good for the overall health of an individual. Right. So would you say that forgiveness is a form of the fountain of youth? 00;19;54;12 - 00;20;33;20 Dr. Robert Enright Enright: Well, it definitely helps us reclaim that which was taken away from us as the effects of injustice when we've been treated terribly unjustly by others. It's not just the injustice. We can't go back and fix that. We can't build a time machine. But what happens to us and so many people are unaware of this. The effects such as fatigue, thinking over and over about this anger that can build up to hatred, that can actually eat away at my happiness, that can actually lead eventually to to anxiety and depression. 00;20;33;26 - 00;21;03;24 Dr. Robert Enright All of that can be cured when a person decides to be good to those who are not good to them. It sounds outrageous. And it is a paradox that when you engage in deliberately not excusing, but trying to be good to the other without throwing justice under the bus, it is the one who forgives. Who does experience healing in these ways with lower anxiety, anger, and depression. 00;21;03;25 - 00;21;26;07 Dr. Robert Enright We even did a cardiac study of men on a cardiac unit of a hospital, and there was more blood flow through the heart once they forgave. Yeah. Doctor Douglas Russell, who was the physician in charge of this, said we helped them avoid chest pains and sudden death. So it might not be the fountain of youth. They got better heart functioning because they forgave. 00;21;26;07 - 00;21;37;11 Dr. Robert Enright And it's the first cause and effect study in the history of the world. Showing forgiveness leads to or causes a change in a major organ of the body. 00;21;37;14 - 00;22;02;19 J.R. Jamison Jamison: That's interesting and also a point connected to that. It's making me think about forgiveness as role in peace. We're living in a time of deep political and cultural divides where folks have drawn lines in the sand, deleted old friends off of social media, and in some cases outright disowned their own family members. What role does forgiveness play in correcting the course for our nation? 00;22;02;21 - 00;22;35;29 Dr. Robert Enright Enright: Well, if people would be willing to forgive and know that they're not going to have to give up their stance, give up even their ideologies, their political views, because forgiveness doesn't ask you to do that. You know what happens, J.R.? When a person forgives you begin to see the humanity in the other, not because of what the other did, but in spite of that will we begin to see a full person not just saying, well, you're a Democrat or you're a Republican, or you do this or you do that. 00;22;35;29 - 00;23;03;05 Dr. Robert Enright There's more to persons than what they do to us. And forgiveness challenges us to expand the story. And if we can do that. And so if we could sit down at the peace table or even before we press the send button in Facebook and we say, you know, that is a human being on the other side of this social media, this is a human being on the other side of this piece table. 00;23;03;12 - 00;23;26;16 Dr. Robert Enright Do you think our communication would then be a little more civil? Yes. Why? Because we're not dealing with someone who's evil and we're dealing with personhood. And that's what I really, really like about forgiveness. It recaptures the personhood and the other who hurt me. And at the same time, you know, whose personhood is also recaptured my own as forgiver. 00;23;26;16 - 00;23;53;03 Dr. Robert Enright Because what we find is when you've been traumatized by others, people tend to what I say is live the lie to to believe the lie and actually take on the lie that others are throwing at us. So our self-esteem goes down. We find that when people forgive others, extend goodness to those others, and see the personhood and the other, our personhood is restored. 00;23;53;03 - 00;23;57;28 Dr. Robert Enright And that can make all the difference in our health, in what you're saying is the function of youth. 00;23;58;01 - 00;24;15;03 J.R. Jamison Jamison: I'm curious to know, you know, I see folks post different pieces on social media about not forgiving. And so I'm curious to hear your thoughts on what would you say to someone who feels that forgiveness is a harmful form of toxic positivity? 00;24;15;06 - 00;24;35;26 Dr. Robert Enright Enright: I would say what I like most about forgiveness, or if not the most, something I really, really like about it. We don't have to engage in it. It is a moral virtue where you're good to those who aren't good to you. But there are a lot of moral virtues out there, like justice. And with certain forms of justice, we have to be just. 00;24;35;27 - 00;24;54;17 Dr. Robert Enright If you don't stop at the stoplight, you're going to get punished. You're going to get the ticket. If you don't forgive, no one is going to punish you. No one's going to throw you in jail. That's what I like about it. If someone is not ready to forgive, nobody should force that. Nor should we condemn a person who doesn't forgive. 00;24;54;24 - 00;25;14;13 Dr. Robert Enright Nor should we forgive someone who does if we don't want to. We need that kind of freedom to let each of us find our own pathway when we've been brutalized by others. So if someone says, I'm not ready for this, it's really bad. I say, that's your choice. But I also would ask this are you understanding forgiveness correctly? 00;25;14;18 - 00;25;42;02 Dr. Robert Enright Are you, for example, confusing it with reconciliation where you might be saying and right, you're dangerous because you're asking me to go back into a partnering relationship that was very abusive to me. Stop it. Well, forgiveness and reconciliation aren't the same thing. You can forgive from the heart. See the personhood and the other smile. Say something good about the person and still not reconcile. 00;25;42;04 - 00;25;51;11 J.R. Jamison Jamison: What would you say on the other side of the spectrum, to someone who feels that forgiveness is the answer to every problem or issue? 00;25;51;12 - 00;26;24;20 Dr. Robert Enright Enright: Well, I would say as long as you don't impose that on the rest of us, that's fine. But if the person says this is the pot of gold, and now if you don't do that, then I'm going to reduce your personhood in my mind. I would say you're giving an intimate view to what forgiveness is. But if the person says, for myself, I have tried forgiveness, and I see that it quiets the rage inside, it helps me connect person to person with the other and with myself. 00;26;24;20 - 00;26;44;20 Dr. Robert Enright And as Aristotle said, we end up with a love of the virtues we practice. And if that person developed a love of virtues, I would say great, and I would not condemn that person, even though others might say, what's wrong with you? Well, that person might have walked to this path very deeply and in a very long way. 00;26;44;21 - 00;26;54;09 Dr. Robert Enright So they're qualitatively different than the rest of us. Let them have that joy. But let's not condemn others who are different in this regard. 00;26;54;11 - 00;27;06;15 J.R. Jamison Jamison: We were talking offline before we started our conversation about how forgiveness is not really taught, especially to young people. Tell me more about that. 00;27;06;16 - 00;27;28;10 Dr. Robert Enright Enright: Well, we do forgiveness education and it took me a long while. I'm a slow learner, J.R. we started studying forgiveness in 1985, but it wasn't until the turn of the century that the light bulb went on. And I thought, you know, we've helped a lot of adults who've been deeply traumatized by others to forgive and basically reclaim their lives. 00;27;28;11 - 00;28;04;11 Dr. Robert Enright Why don't we prepare children when they're young to learn about forgiveness through stories so that they become fortified in this, knowing what it is, knowing it's not reconciliation, not excusing, not abandoning justice so that when the traumas of adulthood that can get very serious, when the 25, 35 or 95, they will then have this approach to be able to reclaim their lives, rather than letting that fatigue and that anxiety and that rage live with them for the rest of their lives. 00;28;04;11 - 00;28;35;28 Dr. Robert Enright What's the point of education to prepare for? Is it only to learn how to write a good sentence with a verb and a subject, or to balance a checkbook? What about surviving brutality? I think we need forgiveness, education, and we actually have forgiveness education materials from prekindergarten age four through the end of high school, age 18. And these have now been requested through our International Forgiveness Institute in over 30 countries of the world. 00;28;35;29 - 00;28;38;14 Dr. Robert Enright Some people are starting to wake up to this. 00;28;38;16 - 00;28;46;21 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Yeah, well, as people often say, the youth will save us. The future is in their hands. So why not start well. 00;28;46;23 - 00;29;12;02 Dr. Robert Enright Enright: Right. I mean, can't you imagine a qualitatively different way of seeking peace if they've been schooled in forgiveness that you and I can't imagine right now, they might have a very different way of talking with one another and working things out. That's so different. We can't imagine it. I mean, as an example, as an analogy, in 1980. Did you and I ever imagine we'd be carrying around our phone in our pocket? 00;29;12;05 - 00;29;28;01 Dr. Robert Enright Well, no. And that's a qualitatively different form of communication that we didn't anticipate. How about schooling children in forgiveness? And then we get out of the way and see if they can find a path to peace that historically has never been tried. 00;29;28;03 - 00;29;37;00 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Doctor Robert Enright, professor of educational psychology at the University of Wisconsin-Madison and co-founder of the International Forgiveness Institute. Thank you for joining me. 00;29;37;01 - 00;29;38;18 Dr. Robert Enright Enright: Thank you so much for having me, J.R.. 00;29;38;19 - 00;29;53;06 J.R. Jamison Jamison: More can be found online. About Doctor Robert Enright. Work on the psychology of forgiveness at International Forgiveness. 00;29;53;08 - 00;30;19;25 J.R. Jamison Stories from today's episode came from facing disabilities in east central Indiana and facing poverty in McPherson, Kansas. We want to thank Hillcrest Services and Circles of McPherson County for organizing these two facing projects. Greg Zgunda’s story as told by his mother, Beverly, was written in collaboration with Stephanie Fisher and was performed by Katy Wolfe. What I Know About Me, an anonymous story, was written in collaboration with Bev Nye and was performed by Tiffany Erk. 00;30;20;03 - 00;30;42;07 J.R. Jamison To listen to past episodes of this program, visit Indiana Public Radio Project. From there, you can subscribe to the podcast where you'll get the facing project delivered to your device each month. Or just ask your smart speaker to play the facing project on NPR. Listeners can contribute stories or volunteer to share the stories of others that may appear on the show. 00;30;42;09 - 00;31;08;06 J.R. Jamison More information at Facing Project. To continue the conversation about this episode, find us on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter at The Facing Project. The facing project is recorded at Indiana Public Radio at Ball State University and Beautiful and Wonderful, Muncie, Indiana. It was produced by the amazing producer and sound engineer extraordinaire, Sean Ashcraft. The show is distributed nationally through PRT. 00;31;08;08 - 00;31;17;12 J.R. Jamison We are your host, Kelsey Timmerman and J.R. Jamison. And until next time, we wish you the courage to share your own story and the empathy to listen to others.