[Sean Ashcraft] Support for Pop of Culture comes from Stallings Wealth Management. Daniel Stallings Financial Advisor Securities and Advisory Services offered through Cetera Advisors, LLC. Member FINRA/SIPC, a broker/dealer and registered investment advisor. Cetera is under separate ownership from any other named entity. [Michelle Kinsey] This week on Pop of Culture, Hoosier authors who traveled wide… [Jill Blocker] And then I quit my job, moved to France, then wrote my first novel. [Keith Roysdon] Everything I put into the small town I knew about the real life small town my parents were from. [Michelle] Are headed back to East Central Indiana. [Luke Jones] We’ll also look at what the data says about equity in dance. [Michelle] And we’ll go behind the song. [Luke] That and more is coming up. Support for Pop of Culture comes from Stallings Wealth Management and from you. You may have heard about large gifts to NPR. Those donations are important, but they don’t bring back the funding to IPR. Your support pays for the programs you rely on, especially local programs like this one, and the people like me who create them. Pop of Culture exists for you and because of you. Give today at indianapublicradio.org. [Michelle] From Indiana Public Radio, this is Pop of Culture. I’m Michelle Kinsey. [Luke] And I’m Luke Jones. Coming up, we learn about an organization promoting gender equity in dance through data. We’ll find out exactly what that means in about 15 minutes. [Michelle] Good, ’cause I’m a little confused. But first, we have two Hoosier authors with strong Indiana roots. Keith Roysden and Jill Blocker. Welcome to both of you. [Keith] Thank you so much for having us. [Jill] For having us. [Michelle] Keith now lives in Tennessee, and Jill calls Switzerland home. But both of you will be coming back to Muncie for an author event in July. Keith, do you want to tell us a little bit about the event coming up? [Keith] We have, I think, July 14 and a July 15 talk and signing. I believe the first one is at the E. B. And Bertha C. Ball Center. And the second one is at Carnegie Library downtown. And in the afternoons of those days, the first of those days, we have an event at Ink Drickers Anonymous bookstore downtown. [Michelle] Yeah. [Keith] And on the second day, we have an event at and these are both 3:00 P.M. events. On the second day, we have an event at Aw Yeah Comics. [Michelle] Oh, nice. Making the most of your time back in Muncie. [Keith] Yeah. Yeah. It’s really kind of It’s kind of loaded with lots of activity. [Michelle] Yeah, yeah. Well, let’s get to those Indiana roots. Full transparency. I believe we all have a newspaper in common, am I right? [Keith] We really do. We really do. [Michelle] We all spent some time at the Star Press newspaper in Muncie. For each of you, when did you decide to move from journalism to more novel writing, creative writing? [Jill] Oh, man. So I studied journalism at Ball State. I was a ’09 grad, and looking forward to going back to Ball State for sure. It was a really strong foundation. I did my internship at the Muncie Star Press. Keith, at the time was my editor. So he walked me through how to find, you know, all the good stuff in the police reports and get texts that I needed. I worked shortly for a TV news station. And then from there, I moved to Switzerland. And in Switzerland, I switched my careers because of the language, so I wasn’t able to be a reporter in English. And I went into marketing, and then after that, I realized, you know what? I’m a writer. Let’s write. And then I quit my job, moved to France, then wrote my first novel. [Michelle] Wow. That’s a great story. [Keith] I know. I know. I’m not gonna bother to mention I wrote a book in Tennessee. After after hearing, you know, “Oh, I moved to France and read a novel.” Oh, yeah. You won. You won. [Jill] It’s the dream. Yeah. [Michelle] I mean, that is pretty cool. Jill, that is pretty cool. Keith, tell us about kind of your journey from newspaper, which was how long were you in the newspaper business more than 30 years, right? [Keith] Oh, yeah. I started I started writing freelance for what was then the Muncie Evening Press when I was still in high school, and started full-time in 1984 after having gone to Ball State. And covered a variety of things for years and years and years from entertainment to politics and government and a lot of filling crime shifts and court shifts. And took a buyout that began in January 2019. [Michelle] Mm hm. [Keith] I’ve continued to write. I write for a bunch of sites, and my two books now, one published, self-published a couple of years ago with Jill’s editing help. We’re publishing the new one, “Seven Angels” through our company that’s called Constelate Creative/Costellate Publishing. [Michelle] Mm hmm. [Keith] The the whole as they say, the book journey. The book journey has been really fascinating because we decided probably ill advisedly for our peace of mind and our time to act as kind of imprint, you know, imprint, indie publishers of our own. So we’re constantly talking to other authors about the possibility of publishing your manuscript. And it’s a lot of fun, but it’s a very different world. [Michelle] Absolutely. So did you stay in touch, Jill, from your time at The Star Press before you started, you know, bopping around all over the world, did you stay in touch with Keith or how did this kind of partnership, this author relationship continue? [Jill] Yeah, I don’t remember exactly how we stayed in touch all those years. I mean, it’s probably almost been like almost 20 years. [Michelle] Yeah. [Jill] But I think Facebook for a while, kind of checking in with each other back and forth. And then I published my first novel, which is a literary historical fiction novel set in Zurich during World War I I published that in German traditionally with a Swiss publisher. [Michelle] Oh. [Jill] And once that came out, I was able to retain the English rights, and I was looking for like an agent and a publishing path in the US to publish the English version. And I ended up self-publishing it, which allowed me to really take full control over the whole process. And then when Keith was talking about, you know, I’ve been trying to find an agent. I don’t know what to do with my book, I said, “Hey, let’s publish it.” And yeah, from that journey with his first book, which is called “That October,” we kind of opened it up to other authors, and we’re working through this publishing in print now. [Michelle] I love that. I’m assuming when you go from journalism to more, you know, novel writing, fiction writing, I mean, there’s got to be a pretty big learning curve. I mean, there’s a big difference between, you know, doing, you know, a story on deadline that maybe eight or nine paragraphs to a 200-page novel. Can you talk a little bit about kind of the writing process for each of you? [Jill] For me, it was actually really challenging writing in a journalism style, everything is very factual. Everything, you know, is source-based. So writing historical fiction was kind of my entryway into novel writing because I was really fact-based, and I was able to kind of make up conversations that maybe didn’t happen, but would likely happen based on the time. And then, yeah, from there, I was able to become a little more creative in the fiction writing, but it was a big transition. [Michelle] Yeah. Keith, what about you? [Keith] When I started writing in earnest, these novels, including “Seven Angels,” I found two big hurdles. One of them was getting used to the idea of you had near unlimited words that you could you didn’t have to be terse, you didn’t have to make anything, you know, 12 inches long. And the other was you needed to put I needed to put more emotion into my stories. People that I wrote articles about, they may have very emotional stories, but, you know, you made things fairly straightforward. And with books, you can really indulge that thing where people feel betrayed and they say they feel betrayed. And people feel overwhelmed and scared and all those emotions that I was able to exercise and put on the page, and it was a great way to find a new kind of writing from newspaper writing. [Michelle] Yeah, it really seems like you’re just unlocking another part of your creative brain, right? And that sounds really exciting. [Keith] Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. [Michelle] Yeah. Well, let’s talk about your new stuff, both of you. Jill’s new young adult novel is “Happily After Ever.” Tell us a little bit about this book, Jill. [Jill] Yeah, “Happily After Ever.” It’s a little spin on the classic fairy tale. So it’s a young adult, a YA new adult crossover, which is kind of like a new-ish genre that’s becoming popular for 18 to 30-year-olds. So it’s really kind of focused on, like, telling the traditional fairytale story, but in a more realistic kind of way. You know, not everything ends with the happily ever after, but that doesn’t mean that your journey’s not a fairy tale. Um, so, yeah, it’s the story of a young woman, a writer, a journalist who is traveling around the world for love and have to eventually, like, decide to choose herself throughout the process. And there’s some hometown roots in there, too. So there’s some Indiana connections, for sure, especially with the Swiss and Indiana, like, small town vibe. I come from a small town outside of Berne, Indiana. So connection to the small town roots is in the story, as well. [Michelle] Oh, that’s awesome. And, Keith, tell us about your new thriller. [Keith] So I was still in Indiana and had no plans to move to Tennessee when I wrote “Seven Angels.” But we had family down here, and my parents had come from Tennessee. And I’d read so much about the little town in Tennessee where my parents were from, and I’d visited it many times. And it was a town that was really in dire shape. An opioid epidemic and loss of jobs and the factories closed, and people were really desperate. So I thought, well, that’s a good starting point for a story about a young woman who comes she’s working for the prosecutor’s office in Knoxville, and she moves back to her little town, and she gets thrust into this situation that involves opioid addiction and a doctor’s pushing pills and white supremacists. And again, writing this in 2019. I’m glad this turned out the way that it did, because some of the main conflict is about a Russian human trafficker who is pursuing a 12-year-old girl from Ukraine. [Michelle] Wow. [Jill] So it was written slightly before everything blew up several years ago about Russia and Ukraine. And there is at least one character, two characters from my Muncie set of characters that are in the book, too. So it gave me a chance to write about a small town, and the response from people has been really gratifying. Everything I put into the small town, I knew about the real-life small town. My parents were from [Michelle] Yeah. I think I think it’s really interesting that both of you have these really wonderful nuggets from your time in Indiana. Both of the books, though, very, very, very different. What do you hope readers sit with after they finish “Seven Angels” and “Happily After Ever?” [Jill] I think kind of the mission behind our imprint, Constellate Publishing is that we are just having, you know, conversations around broader topics that aren’t necessarily, like, in the public, like discourse. So with Keith talking about topics like human trafficking and, you know, small town drug use and me on the like, a little bit more fairy tale side, but still kind of questioning, like, modern society and how we’re thinking about what we’re, you know, teaching our young girls and how we expect women to grow up into, like, a strict society of being a wife and being a stay-at-home mom and stuff like that. So that’s what we’re trying to do, I think, with our publishing is opening up conversations and opening it up to writers who are kind of allowing people to, like, a little think more critically about different topics. Um, yeah, what do you think, Keith? [Keith] Well, I think one of the things that I like the most about “Happily After Ever” is that the expectation that especially young women, but young men, too, you have this fairy tale life or you’re doing something wrong. You know? And that’s totally not a good way to look at it. And it puts so much expectation on young people. And one of my favorite things about Jill’s book is that it is very much a person making their way and making mistakes and deciding, “Okay, this isn’t necessarily how I think things should always go. And what can I do to improve that and to find my way.” And that’s really what, to me, a lot of the point of the book is. [Michelle] Oh, I love that. Well, congratulations to both of you on all of your success, and we look forward to seeing you in July when you come back home to Muncie. [Keith] We’re looking forward to it. [Jill] Thanks so much. Yeah, we’re looking forward to seeing you in Muncie. Thank you. [Michelle] Jill Blocker and Keith Roysdon are both authors. They’ll be back in Muncie in July. [Luke] If I said, women are underrepresented in administrative roles and arts organizations, you’d probably believe me. But what does the data say? Or co-host Kara DuQuett spoke with two leaders at the Dance Data Project. [Elizabeth “Liza” Yntema] Elizabeth Yntema, President and Founder of Dance Data Project. I go by Liza. [Nancy Dobbs Owen] Hi, I’m Nancy Dobbs Owen. I am the External Communications Lead for Dance Data Project. [Luke] And she started by asking them, What is the project? [Liza] Dance Data Project is a not- for-profit that I started in 2015, and we use data to advocate for women in dance and the performing arts generally. But as part of that, we also advocate for transparency, best practices, and educating the field. And that could be artists, that could be dance critics or, you know, performing arts critics. It can be parents of dancers. It could be audience members, and it can, in particular, be donors. So they get a sense of what’s going on with the money. [Kara] I think that’s something we expect in this day and age. I certainly do. [Nancy] Yeah, I think it’s really important that not only artistic directors, but executive directors, board members, also choreographers coming in, dancers in the room understand how a organization runs and where the money comes from, where it’s going, and where it’s allocated, because the more transparency there is for everyone in the organization, the cleaner it’s going to run. [Kara] I completely agree. And then there’s not room for people to make up their own narratives when, you know, actually, what’s going on is out there for everyone to know. Will you talk a little bit about some of the inequities in the field of dance and what they are? And probably more specifically the areas of dance that you’ve researched the most, which I believe is ballet, classical ballet, specifically, because I think a lot of people might see that as a field dominated by women. [Liza] Uh huh. Exactly. I’m going to do very broad brush and start with the big picture. We have produced 72 publicly available research studies since February of 2019. [Kara] Wow. [Liza] I firmly believe that those who most need this information are the least able to afford it. So we are here to serve the community, and I think a lot of folks in the performing arts have forgotten that under the IRS statutes, it’s not about my artistic vision, my this, my that or excellence, etcetera. We are here to make the community better. And I’m just going to put it in really simple terms. When you go to “The Nutcracker” or “Giselle” or whatever, most people don’t realize that about 40% of the women that you see dancing on the stage who are presenting as professional are very likely to either not be paid a salary, maybe they get a stipend, or they may actually be paying for the privilege of being there. [Kara] Wow. Yeah. [Liza] And I’ll let Nancy pick it up. [Nancy] Right. So DDP looks at companies in the United States. We look at companies globally. We look at who’s choreographing the pieces, who is setting the pieces, who is teaching the students, and rehearsing the ballets. And that’s number one. Number two is we look at the way that the balance of gender shifts as the power increases. So you start in an organization that has 70% of the people in the organization are women, right? And the students are girls and the teachers in the lower levels are women. And then as you move up, the teachers suddenly start shifting and being men and the people leading the organization are male and the people setting the ballets or choreographing the ballets or male, and it actually shifts to 70% men, 30% women, once you move into the leadership positions. These are very broad numbers. Obviously, they shift slightly every year. But what we see as a community and what we see as a country is very different from what’s actually happening on the ground. Right? [Kara] So you’re using quantitative measurement to persuade people as to the problems that are going on. How do you feel like that’s going to work in bridging some of these inequities as opposed to qualitative data. You know what I mean? Like. [Liza] I am probably ridiculously optimistic. I do believe that when the data is out there, change is inevitable. It won’t happen right away. And I mean, literally, we came out with three reports and somebody said, Well, what change have you seen? And I was like, “Okay, come on, girl. Deep breath.” It was just like, “Well, this stuff takes a while.” What we have seen is that people are not denying there’s a problem anymore. We also don’t have to solve all the problems ourselves, and I’ll let Nancy jump in. People keep wanting us to expand our mission. And again, we work on less than a quarter of $1 million a year. We provide people the ammunition, but as Nancy sort of alluded to earlier, It’s on donors. It’s on the press. Thank you again for this interview. It is on the community in general to take our information and, you know, move things along. We can’t do it all. I’ll let Nancy come in. [Kara] We have to collaborate, for sure. [Liza] Amen. [Kara] So go ahead, Nancy. [Nancy] Yeah. I think what’s really interesting is that you brought up quantitative data, and how does that change things? Quantitative data does not change things on its own. It is a great base then to do a qualitative study. But if you do the qualitative study first, it can be really easily dismissed as, well, that was your experience. That was your feelings. We’re so sorry you feel that way, and I’m sure that that is true. But if you then back that up with, Hey, here’s the data. So my experience is not just my experience. This qualitative study is illustrating the effects of this data, not creating the story. Sure, we should be able to make change by saying, Hey, I want my chance, too, but all of these systems are very entrenched. So the more that you can say, Hey, this is just fact. There are no feeling involved in this whatsoever is going to be a much stronger tool to move forward with. [Liza] We want to show folks that while, yes, you may love being an artist, this is a job. It should be compensated. [Kara] Yes. [Liza] This is a work environment. It should not be toxic. You should not be able to drag a dancer around by the hair to keep them rehearsing until two in the morning. And I think it’s really important to remind everybody, these are professionals or people who want to be professionals, and they need to be, they need to be treated with dignity. And again, if you’re sitting in the audience and seeing the pretty thing happening, it’s easy to forget that these folks have spent years training and we also believe that it’s entirely possible to bring some workplace safeguards for not a lot of money into dance, into theater, etcetera. [Kara] Well, you must at this time. You know, I mean, that’s always been the case, but the artistic trope of the artist and the fact that they don’t have a professional role or they don’t need to be compensated what you started this interview with is it’s a privilege just to be there, you know? That’s crazy. And I want to know what’s next for you all? What are you looking forward to as things change? [Liza] Well, we think, I think that some of the most exciting dynamic stuff in dance in performing arts generally is not necessarily in New York. Or San Francisco, or Chicago. There is so much richness. There are so many exciting things going on. We think there’s the arts fabric, the cultural fabric, which is going to keep us united. Small D, democracy as a nation takes place in smaller cities. The work is incredible. The level of training is incredible. You said collaboration. You find far more collaboration in smaller towns. We were just in Charlottesville. Everybody talks to everybody because they can’t survive otherwise. So, passed data, what is DDP doing? I will let Nancy take over because she’s sort of architecting this. Go, Nancy. [Nancy] So we have a brand new digital exchange that we are rolling out. We are in the beta testing right now, and we will be rolling it out completely in September. And this is basically an interactive map plus a database of every single artist who registers for it behind the scenes. So we’re not talking dancers, performers, but we are talking directors, choreographers, lighting designers, musicians, intimacy coordinators, stylists, reperturs, dramaturgs, all of the people who put productions on the stage. And what individuals who are hiring can do is put in their city and then put a radius out of how far they want to hire from, and everyone who has any of the qualifications that they are looking for will pop up on the right side of their screen. So this is designed to break through the, you know, “old boys” network in a way. It’s designed to keep hiring local so that we’re not going to the same five people, right? This is a very, very gate-kept industry. You get hired by who you know. I’m currently in Cedar City, Utah, which is a small but highly artistic community. The Utah Shakespeare Festival is here. And even here, people are being brought in when we have an entire university of people who are majoring in all of these things. [Kara] You’re both speaking our language that we talk about all the time here at Pop of Culture. Thank you for speaking with us. We’ve been talking to Liza Yntema and Nancy Dobbs Owen of the Dance Data Project, a nonprofit working to promote gender equity in the arts through data. [Liza] Thank you for the opportunity. [Nancy] Thank you so much. [Michelle] It’s the part of the show where we learn the meaning behind the lyrics. [Luke] We call it “Behind the Song.” [Michelle] Catchy. [Luke] It comes from The Songwriter Sessions, a live event every first Thursday in Downtown Muncie. [Michelle] These local songwriters were recorded exclusively for Pop of Culture in February. [Spenser] But once again, my name is Spencer, spelled S-P-E-N-S-E-R. Thank you to Elm Street Brewing, for having us tonight and letting local original music be played. And thank you to the Fierce klan for hosting and for everybody being here. And stick around because after me, if you’re sick of me, we’ll have Kat after me. And this next song, I wrote this one last year. I had a friend who let a boy ruin her mood, and she was in a really grumpy mood for so long, and I was like, Girl, it’s just a boy. And I wrote a song called “Ruin My Mood” from her perspective, and she doesn’t know about it ’cause she doesn’t want to know when I write songs about her, so I don’t tell her, but it’s about her. So yeah, this one’s called Ruin Mod. ♪♪ Try my best to brighten up for you. Bit the bullet, tightened up my loose shoes all for you to never even make a move, bit of brain darkened up I move. Lit a candle by the kitchen counter, blew it out ’cause it didn’t matter. Oh, and I know I know this ain’t the start of a chapter, just the story of how he never had her. And it’ll ruin my mood if I don’t say, “I love you” and it’ll ruin my mood if I don’t get to talk to you. But you never do. You ruin my mood. Burn the garden, wreck a perfect evening, just so I could forget the morning. Oh and a flame is blown in a crowd shotgunnin’ a beer. I tastes like you. And it’ll ruin my mood if you don’t say “love you” And it’ll ruin my mood if I don’t get to talk to you. But you never do. You ruin my mood. Sour is the taste on my tongue after I see the wine and I don’t get my way again. Ignorance is bliss but not like this. I want to crawl inside your head. You swore it wasn’t casual maybe more you just got say the word. listen before I go, you never know what it’s like to get the girl. Oh. And it’ll ruin my mood if you don’t say “love you”. And it’ll ruin my mood if I don’t get to talk to you. Which you’ll never do. You ruin my mood. Which you’ll never do. You ruin my mood. ♪♪ Thank you. [Kat Nightingale] My name is Kat Nightingale. That’s Kat with a K Nightingale like the songbird chirp chirp. You can find me on all the socials, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube. I’ve got a couple of songs out on the streaming platforms. And this song is the title song for my album that I’m in the process of recording. Um So this is a song about breaking the cycles of generational trauma. There’s a really interesting article about scientists who took these rats who were attracted to a cherry tree, and they put electrodes around the base of the tree. Anytime the rats would approach, they would get an electrical shock. And they very quickly associated not just the tree itself, but even the fragrance of the cherries would initiate this pain response in these poor traumatized rats. And then they took the traumatized rats, and they breed them with untraumatized rats. And that offspring, without ever having set foot near a cherry tree, never seen one before, immediately got a pain response to the fragrance of the cherries. And they repeated this process over and over again, and it took over it took seven generations to finally break that trauma response in these untraumatized rats. Um, so we’re slightly more complex than rats, and, you know, we’ve got all this compound trauma from our great, great, great, great grandparents all the way down to our parents and us. So, you know, please do your shadow work, go to counseling. Let’s make this world slightly less f****d up than, you know, the next generation, slightly lessed f****d up than we are. So thank you for coming to my TED Talk. This is “Monkey See.” ♪♪ You woke us up at 3:00 A.M. And you brought us to the kitchen so we could throw pancakes across the room. Then he loaded us in the station and took us to the park. So we could catch him right on a hot air balloon. But the very next day you just laid in bed for weeks you didn’t even lift your head. When the hell did you even go? But it’s not your fault, You didn’t know what’s wrong with you affected us all and the monkey see and the monkeys will too. Whatever we have to do to survive. Well, the lessons we learn from our folks help to teach us right and wrong. They shape us and who we’re going to be. But you will need Tommy to hit and scream. You didn’t teach me to cook or clean. From you I got depression and anxiety and the only other things I learn from you are how to people please and be abused. How the hell I supposed to know that it’s not my fault I didn’t know what’s wrong with you affected us all. And a monkey sees and a monkey will do whatever she has to do to survive. But this monkey heard and this monkey he learned that there’s a better way to live and a monkey is doing a shadow book cause she is not monkey. I’m not a monkey anymore. Now I’m all grown up and on my own, I’ve got two dogs and a cat and a mortgage loan. In fact, I think I’m doing just fine ’cause I’m learning to tell the difference between what can and can’t control, I’ll just do my best and leave the rest behind. But I’m far from perfect believe you me. I still struggle with setting boundaries. But I’m getting stronger every day. It becomes our fault because when he know we have the choice to learn and grow, but if we turn away we’ll forever stay just a monkey in a cage. Were not monkeys anymore. We’re not monkeys anymore. ♪♪ [Michelle] That was Kat Nightingale with her song “Monkey See.” Before that, Spenser performed “Ruin My Mood.” “Story Behind the Song” comes from Songwriter Sessions, created by The Fierce and produced by Josh Isenhart. Full disclosure, I’m a member of The Fierce and the host of The Sessions. You’re listening to Pop of Culture. I’m Michelle Kinsey. [Luke] And I’m Luke Jones. This week for, “What Are You Working On?” [Michelle] Has a record 12 International Blue Grass Music Association Fiddler of the Year Awards and in 2018, was inducted into the National Fiddlers Hall of Fame. Of course, I’m talking about Michael Cleveland. And he’s returning with his band Flamekeeper to Muncie on July 11 to kick off the Muncie Three Trails music series at Canan Commons in Downtown Muncie. Michael, thanks for joining us before the big show. [Michael Cleveland] Hey, thank you all. Thanks so much for having me. [Michelle] Now, this show marks your third appearance in Muncie. Other shows were in 2019 and 2021. So what keeps you-. [Michael] Man, I think there’s more than that. [Michelle] Is there? [Michael] Uh, I was trying to remember how many times, but I know we played it at least two other times. I think this might be our, like, fifth or sixth time doing it. [Michelle] You’ve got to be kidding. Well, I’m going to change that question, and I’m going to say, you’ve appeared in Muncie several times. Obviously, Muncie loves you. What do you love about playing in Muncie? [Michael] Man, it’s just a laid-back kind of vibe there, and it’s just such a great spot to play. And, I mean, I’ve even they always have a great lineup. Every time I see the lineup, it’s like, Man, I need to come back and see these guys. But I’m we really enjoy getting to play there anytime we get the chance. It’s usually every every couple of years or so. So I mean, it’s always an honor for us to get to come back. [Michelle] Michael, you were recognized as a prodigy at a very young age. Talk a little bit about that. And then, if you could share about how your relationship with music has changed over the years. [Michael] I think I love music as much or more now than I did when I was a little kid, and that’s saying a lot because it’s really all I thought about. None of my family played music at all, but my grandparents had got into Bluegrass music a few years before I was born. And they helped start a Bluegrass show in Henryville, Indiana, where I’m from, originally. So I think my grandparents, from what I heard, I don’t remember this, but they started taking me to this stuff when I was about six months old. And I just love the music and I don’t remember much about being 4-years-old, but I remember hearing a fiddle player play the “Orange Blossom Special.” And that was what did it for me, you know, I knew at that point that I had to learn how to play fiddle if only to play that. So So there was really nobody around who had taught somebody who was visually impaired. And then I started school at The Kentucky School for the Blind in Louisville, Kentucky, when I was getting ready to turn five. And they had a music program, and it was all, you know, by ear. And I remember going into the music room for the first time and meeting the teacher, Mrs. Nolan. And she asked me, you know, “What is it about the violin that makes you want to learn how to play it?” I said, “Well, I don’t know much about the violin, but I know a lot about the fiddle, and I want to learn how to play bluegrass music, and I want to learn the Orange Blossom Special.” She was not impressed at that time. But that’s kind of that’s really how I got started. And then it was just kind of once I got to where I could play a few simple versions of tunes, I started taking my fiddle around all the bluegrass stuff and just learning as much as I could from everybody. [Michelle] Right. So when you were younger, who inspired you? Who were your mentors? And who are you listening to today that you’re inspired by? [Michael] Of course, there was a lot of fiddle players. Benny Martin, I’d say, Kenny Baker, Scotty Stoneman, Bobby Hicks, pretty much all the guys in there. And there were local players. You know, there were people around here who were as good and could have played professionally. They just, you know, they didn’t. They had jobs and families and have never chose to go out on the road, but they could have done it easily. [Michelle] Yeah. Some might be attending a Michael Cleveland concert for the first time in July. What can they expect? [Michael] High octane Bluegrass music. That’s what we try to bring. And we try to represent traditional Bluegrass, because that’s what I always love. I play all kinds of music. And, you know, but what I really love to play most of all, is just traditional hard driving, you know, grass. We do add our own elements to it. We like to jam out quite a bit and kind of stretch out a little bit. But we always try to take it back to the people who set the standard and kind of started this music like Bill Monroe and the Stanley Brothers and Jimmy Martin, even if we’re not playing a song like them, we try to play in that way. You know, with the drive and intensity that those guys play. [Michelle] What’s the weirdest place you’ve ever performed? [Michael] Oh, man. Ah. Let’s see. So the jam, I got to jam with Doc Watson when I was 13-years-old, and there’s a video floating around that. That jam session took place in the bathroom. [Michelle] What? [Michael] At at IBMA in Owensboro. Yeah, they were all picking in this Emma’s big bathroom area. You know. [Michelle] Oh, that’s a great one. I love that. Do you name your fiddles, and if so, which one is your favorite? [Michael] I have never named my fiddles. But the one that I always play all the time and I just keep coming back to it. You know, I’m always looking at fiddles, and man, you know, like, I think that I find one that is better than what I have, but really, I always keep coming back to the five string fiddle built by John Silikowski from Stotsburg, Indiana, that I’ve played since probably 1997 when I got it. And that I hope nothing ever happens to that fiddle because I’ve yet to find anything that comes close. [Michelle] Ah. [Michael] To me. [Michelle] Yeah. That would be a hard one to replace. [Michael] Yeah. [Michelle] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And our last question, you’ve won just about every award a Bluegrass fiddler can win, if not all of them. What still makes you excited to pick up the fiddle? [Michael] The music, you know, I uh you know, I think about it, even when I’m not playing, and I can still find something. I can still listen to something and just makes me want to play. And I hope I never lose that, you know, I still love to jam. I don’t get to jam as much because it’s just so busy anymore, but man, anytime I get the opportunity, I just I’ve always loved to play music. [Michelle] Well, we are looking forward to listening to you jam right here in Muncie, Indiana in July. Thank you so much, Michael, for taking time to chat with us on Pop of Culture. [Michael] Thanks for having me. [Luke] It’s time for the Arts Calendar. Whoo. The seventh annual Juneteenth Muncie celebration is Saturday, June 20 at McCollough. The event from 1:00 to 7:00 P.M, will include live entertainment, vendors, and community tables, a wellness village, and much more. Everyone is welcome. [Michelle] Awesome. Muncy Civic Theatre is presenting “The Taming” in the Casazza Family Studio Theatre this weekend. This comedy by Lauren Gunderson, author of “The Revolutionist” and “Book of Will” is derived from Shakespeare’s “The Taming of the Shrew.” It is a fast-paced combination of politics and beauty pageants. Yes, you heard that correctly. That will challenge what you think you know about modern American politics and women. munciecivictheater.org has more info. [Luke] I remember when Laura Williamson described we had her on from Muncie Civic, and she described what that play was about, and I had to cut out my laugh on the pan left. [Michelle] Yeah, very interesting premise. Yes. [Luke] The Muncie Artist Guild annual show kicks off Saturday, June 20 at Minnetrista Museum and Gardens. The exhibit runs through August 9. From painting to mixed media, the show features a variety of artistic styles and celebrates creativity across East Central Indiana. [Michelle] Speaking of celebrating, it is a big weekend for live music outside. I love some outdoor music. We’ve got a lot on tap. Mike Milligan and Steam Shovel will perform Friday at Yorktown Civic Green as part of its free summer concert series. The Blues begins at 7:30 P.M. And Cook & Bell will perform at the Anderson Summer Concert Series Friday at the Dickman Town Center at 7:30 P.M. [Luke] Hank Haggard will be causing a ruckus at 7:00 P.M. Saturday at Guardian Brewing Company as part of its outdoor concert series. Jerry Barker and The Onion Cutters will perform at 7:00 P.M. Saturday at Jack Rabbit Coffee in Anderson on their coffee patio. [Michelle] Coffee patio. But wait. There’s more. Duke Tomato is in Newcastle Friday as part of the Newcastle Henry County concert series at the Arts Park. Music begins at 7:00 P.M. Friday night, you can catch the Chameleon Brothers at Tony Winery. John Allen will be there on Saturday, and Big Roscoe in the Hammers will perform Saturday as part of the Dunkirk Summer Concert Series at Webster Depot Park. That show is at 7:00 P.M. [Luke] But wait, wait. There’s more. The 11th annual Anderson On Tap is Saturday at the Dickman Center downtown. This year’s event will feature pours from 40 Indiana Craft Breweries, distilleries and wineries, live music, local food, local art, games, and more. This is a 21 and older event, friends, tickets are available at the gate. [Michelle] And before we go, don’t forget that Sunday is Father’s Day. Do something nice for Dad, okay? [Luke] I was trying to think of something nice I could do for my dad that my dad would appreciate. Uh, Dad, just for you. I’m going into a STEM field instead. We want to hear about your arts and culture events. Let us know at indianapublicradio.org /contact. Then click Pop of Culture. Support for Pop of Culture comes from Stallings Wealth Management and from you. You may have heard about large gifts to NPR. Those donations are important, but they don’t bring back the funding to IPR. Your support pays for the programs you rely on, especially local programs like this one, and the people like me who create them. Pop of Culture exists for you and because of you. Give today at indianapublicradio.org. And that’s our show. Our director of Audio Operations is Sean Ashcraft. [Michelle] This week was produced by Luke Jones, who is going to stick with radio. Sorry, Luke’s dad. [Luke] We had production assistant from Andrew Montavon. [Michelle] Our show was hosted by me, Michelle Kinsey. [Luke] And me Luke Jones. Pop of culture is a production from IPR on the campus of Ball State University. This year’s event will feature pours from 40 Indiana Craft Brew. Brew. Anenemony. This year’s event- [Michelle] I’m sorry. [inaudible] Oh. Ho. This is gonna be your [inaudible]. [Casey Alexander] Okay. Maybe the first take wasn’t that bad.