00;00;00;04 - 00;00;14;00 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: In the next decade, 500,000 teens with autism will enter adulthood and age out of school-based services. Adults with autism are less likely to access health care, have a job, and pursue a degree beyond high school. I'm Kelsey Timmerman. 00;00;14;00 - 00;00;23;26 J.R. Jamison Jamison: And I'm J.R. Jamison. Today on the Facing Project: Autism and Adulthood. [Theme music] 00;00;23;29 - 00;00;29;13 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: Do you know what this is? [Piano music] 00;00;29;15 - 00;00;33;03 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Is that Greensleeves or maybe Hot Cross Buns? 00;00;33;03 - 00;00;38;19 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: Close, but not really close at all. I can tell that you took a music appreciation course in college. 00;00;38;25 - 00;00;50;08 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Yeah, well, while I love music, unfortunately the closest I got to a music appreciation course was six grade choir at Cowan Elementary. I was well known around those parts for my tenor voice. 00;00;50;10 - 00;00;56;00 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: Mhmm. I'm sure. Well, that's actually my son Griffin, playing his first piano recital. 00;00;56;00 - 00;01;17;06 J.R. Jamison Jamison: I know, I was only kidding. I actually watched this the other night when you first posted it, and I think not only is it cute, but I'm amazed that he played his entire recital without looking at any music. He also seems really happy, and I seriously imagine him on stage as an adult playing for thousands of people. Your little dude is a musical genius. 00;01;17;08 - 00;01;38;01 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: I mean, I like to think so, and who knows, maybe he is. He played all 18 songs from memory, and, you know, he takes songs and plays them in different keys. He'll take a song and transpose it onto the black keys and add a white key when appropriate. Obviously, I don't really know that much about music, even though I did take eight years of piano. 00;01;38;03 - 00;02;01;18 Kelsey Timmerman But he does things that I didn't even know about. And here's the best part, he usually blasts through his songs, but his teacher - shout out to Mrs. Eichhorn - had him stop so we could applaud, and when we did so, his face lit up like it was Christmas morning, you know. It was just amazing. He was smiling and clapping, and we were smiling and clapping, and it was simply the best. 00;02;01;18 - 00;02;06;09 J.R. Jamison Jamison: I mean, that's the spirit to have though, because honestly, if you can't clap for yourself, who can you clap for? 00;02;06;11 - 00;02;07;01 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: True. 00;02;07;03 - 00;02;19;11 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Today's episode is about autism and adulthood. And to be totally transparent, Griffin, your son, is on the spectrum. His recital reminded me of a piece that you wrote a while back about him running a race at his elementary school’s field day. 00;02;19;19 - 00;02;45;25 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: Yeah, for sure. When you get to know Griff, which can take some time, you experience how amazing he is. He has inside jokes with everyone. He never forgets them. He makes you feel special, like you are in on a secret. Like, sometimes, like that track meet, like, I wish others could see how amazing he is. That day I wished that maybe he was, like, the fastest kid, and all the parents and everyone else could see how- see him through how I see him and see how special he is. 00;02;45;26 - 00;03;11;23 Kelsey Timmerman And I think his recital sort of did that, but it wasn't so much, like, how amazing he played or he memorized all of his songs. It was his joy. He is just so full of joy. It's contagious. He doesn't care about ribbons or awards. He doesn't care about meeting or exceeding anyone's expectations. Yet I wonder, will Griffin drive a car? 00;03;11;25 - 00;03;42;11 Kelsey Timmerman Will he graduate high school? Will he fall in love? You know the future is unknowable for us all. You know, a father hopes’ for his son are nothing more than hypotheses written in pencil that are erased and rewritten. A father may hold in his heart all sorts of futures for his son: attitudes and aptitudes, successes and failures, accidents and attain goals, diseases and illnesses are all factors that can rewrite an imagined future. 00;03;42;12 - 00;03;53;06 Kelsey Timmerman And sometimes I let my imagination of what Griffin's life could be get in the way of who he is now. But what does the future hold? Who knows? 00;03;53;07 - 00;04;14;06 J.R. Jamison Jamison: And the truth is that all little kids on the spectrum grow up to be adults on the spectrum. When we think about autism, we often think about kids. But imagined futures become reality. Kids grow up. We've all heard of the scientist Temple Grandin, or we've experienced the movie magic of Tim Burton, both of whom are on the spectrum and have embraced and hone their gifts to share with the world. 00;04;14;06 - 00;04;21;02 J.R. Jamison But there are hundreds of thousands of stories of adults with autism who are making their way in the world today, giving it everything they got. 00;04;21;03 - 00;04;44;09 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: Yeah. They're taking a break from all of their troubles, and that sure does help a lot. Now that we’ve recited half the Cheers theme, yeah, let's get serious. People with autism are changing our world. Like, I like the idea - I love this idea - of neurodiversity. Like, people see and process the world differently, and that adds color and flavor to our world. 00;04;44;11 - 00;05;00;16 Kelsey Timmerman Today we have two stories for you. One from Kyle Reninger and his wife Amanda, who own and operate Sea Salt and Cinnamon, which offers sweet and savory all-vegan foods. Kyle knew of Griffin and reached out to me with a question, “I think I might be autistic. Now what?” 00;05;00;18 - 00;05;24;08 Kyle Reninger Kyle: I was in my mid-20s when I hit the wall. Amanda and I had been together for about ten years, married for about three, and we were having a rough time. I was depressed and tired, and I really didn't like what was going on in my life. And one day, we were listening to an NPR story, and they were interviewing this guy that wrote this book, “The Journal of Best Practices.” 00;05;24;11 - 00;05;50;17 Kyle Reninger It was about a guy who started to see later in life that he was on the autism spectrum, and we looked at each other like, wait a minute. That's how I started this journey. Growing up, I never thought I was different. My parents sent very clear expectations of what I was supposed to act like in public, so I knew. I ended up dropping out of college, working at Starbucks for a dozen years. 00;05;50;19 - 00;06;14;15 Kyle Reninger I sold TVs and electronics at Circuit City. I've done a lot of those jobs where I'm very people forward. My dad was always a salesman, so I got really good at mimicking those kinds of personas. But then it became too much working in sales. I started to see all these different masks I was wearing. There was work Kyle and home Kyle and friend Kyle. 00;06;14;21 - 00;06;39;20 Kyle Reninger A Kyle for every occasion. Then I started having all these major depressive and anxiety issues, and I realized, hey, you can't keep this up your whole life. It was too draining to be these different people seven days a week. So I started this journey. I started by taking these online autism tests, and I’m scoring 93 out of 100. I'd give them to Amanda and she'd get like a 30. 00;06;39;27 - 00;06;58;24 Kyle Reninger So we knew there was something there. We started doing more research, and it just sort of explained a lot of the difficulties I was having throughout my life interacting with people. What I liked about the research and like about Facebook groups now is I get to see how a lot of other people took this journey, how they're doing it. 00;06;58;27 - 00;07;21;24 Kyle Reninger I met people who had been diagnosed when they were little kids and some who were in their teens, and I started going back and forth. Is there a right way of doing this journey? I’m learning about where other people are on their journey. And I'm integrating those people and stories into mine. That's helped, because when I started this journey, I lost a job because of it. 00;07;21;25 - 00;07;47;20 Kyle Reninger I lost friends because I wasn't the same jolly Kyle they always knew. That was difficult, but it was also really freeing in a lot of ways. Now that I know, I have a lot fewer major depressive or anxiety attacks. I still get them, but not the major ones, and not every day. Now I build in the wind down time I need during the day or after work. 00;07;47;25 - 00;08;09;21 Kyle Reninger I know how to decompress: a lot of television, games or screen time. And now I can be very helpful to our vegan food business because I love the delivery time where I can just drive and listen to a podcast and have that alone time that I need. I'm learning to be a better man because I'm learning how my brain works. 00;08;09;27 - 00;08;31;10 Kyle Reninger Like I'm really good with systems: creating them, playing with them, making them better. So now I can find the things that really come easy for me. The stereotype of autistic people is that were loners and that we want to be alone, and that may be for some, but I think it's more that social interaction is difficult for us. 00;08;31;12 - 00;09;17;21 Kyle Reninger I see a lot of really lonely people reaching out to make connections. I’m lucky to have my connection with Amanda. To stimulate ourselves, some of us stim, like rocking, spinning, or flapping our arms. All of us autistics are different. I'm learning what I'm like, and I want to learn what you're like so we can express ourselves better. So I'm here telling my story, looking forward to the day that I can flap my arms in freedom, and no one cares. [Upbeat trip-hop music] 00;09;17;24 - 00;09;31;10 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Our next story comes from Belinda Hughes, a mother who knew early on that her son was on the spectrum. Her search for answers led to her helping an entire community by founding an organization that offers support for families and teachers. 00;09;31;12 - 00;09;57;09 Amanda Reninger Amanda: Gabriel, my 13 year old son, has been a better gift than I could have ever imagined. All my children are fantastic. They're all gifts in different ways, and they're all special to each other. It's been a blessing to be their mother, but Gabe has shown me how strong I am, how great my family is, how wonderful and blessed we are to live in a community that cares so much about their neighbors. 00;09;57;12 - 00;10;23;23 Amanda Reninger Autism has brought me to the classroom, but my love for my son, my Gabe, has forced me to make a difference in the community I call home. When he was a little boy, Gabe was the happiest baby you'd ever know. We called him our golden child. He'd smile and laugh. He was perfect. But as he was growing up, especially when I realized he wasn't listening to me when I called his name, or when he wasn't speaking 00;10;23;23 - 00;10;51;21 Amanda Reninger by the time he was two years old, I knew something was different. Something wasn't wrong with my son. Something was different. I'm a faith-based person, and thank God I am. The drives to Riley Hospital for Children, traveling back and forth from Muncie, wondering what was going on with my son would have driven me crazy without God, especially when I couldn't get any answers. 00;10;51;23 - 00;11;19;00 Amanda Reninger Well, at first I did get answers, but they weren't the right ones. First, I was told my Gabe heard things, but as if we were all speaking underwater. Then I was told he was mildly mentally handicapped, but I knew my boy. These diagnoses didn't fit. These weren't his issues. His intelligence was off the charts. And he loved - and I mean loved - listening to music. 00;11;19;03 - 00;11;46;24 Amanda Reninger He would stay up all night to the point where I had to go to sleep, I was so worn out. I was frustrated. So I do what I do when I get frustrated with not finding the right answers. I prayed, and I prayed, and I prayed, and I prayed. Then I got an answer. Autism. In 2002, when he was four years old, Gabe was diagnosed with autism. 00;11;46;26 - 00;12;13;12 Amanda Reninger I didn't know much about what this was at the time, but I was determined to find out more and to give my son the care he needed. It wasn't going to be easy. The term autism was new to a lot of families in Muncie at the time. People had heard of it. I had too, but in terms of finding out how to raise your child, what to expect as they get older, how to encourage their siblings to play with them, 00;12;13;13 - 00;12;37;20 Amanda Reninger we had no clue. We needed a support group where we could get together and ask questions. We needed to learn from parents who had gone through the testing and the therapy sessions. We needed to find answers for how best to raise our children. Before I knew it, my passion for finding answers became bigger than helping Gabe. I wanted to help Muncie. 00;12;37;23 - 00;13;02;28 Amanda Reninger I organized the support group with the help of plenty of others in the community in 2005. I wasn't sure who would come. I found out: standing room only. That's what we had during the first session almost ten years ago. People had plenty of questions, and some had answers. We had each other to lean on, and that made the biggest difference in the world. 00;13;03;00 - 00;13;24;08 Amanda Reninger We could be honest with each other about how tired we were, and how we just didn't know what to do with our children with autism. We were also tired of family and friends who disappeared from our lives, some ashamed to have our children with their kids. But we had each other to lean on, and that made the biggest difference in the world. 00;13;24;10 - 00;13;48;15 Amanda Reninger The advertisements for crazy schemes to “cure” autism: “Use this clay, and your child will be back to normal.” And the people who told us to spank our children into acting right drove us crazy. Having people not understand us or our family dynamic was frustrating. We were tired of explaining why, at least in Gabe's case, he was obsessed with trains. 00;13;48;21 - 00;14;18;09 Amanda Reninger Because he is. That's it. Wondering about what the future holds made us afraid for our children. Will they get married? What about high school? Will they be teased? And what about this “spectrum” we keep hearing about? Does it change? We were unaware of what was going on with our children. I learned so much through the support group. I learned it's okay to have more questions than answers for a little while. 00;14;18;12 - 00;14;48;25 Amanda Reninger But there comes a point when you have to fight for answers. By 2005, I was at that point. Many of the families were. We needed an organization that could give people answers. I continued to fight, not only for Gabe, but for all the families in Muncie who couldn't afford services due to insurance issues. I continued to fight for families who needed legislators to understand autism is real, and our children deserve the best services out there. 00;14;48;28 - 00;15;13;15 Amanda Reninger I continued to fight to the point when I decided this was my new life, my new love, working to give families the best of everything they need. Now I'm working on a PhD at the Chicago School for Professional Psychology. I'm really excited about the teaching aspect of my future work and special education, but I'm the most passionate about working with families. 00;15;13;17 - 00;15;47;12 Amanda Reninger One day, my son Benjamin asked me, “Mom, how do I find out the purpose God has with my life? I see God wants you to change the world of autism.” That touched me. But this isn't about me. It never has been. At first, it was about my son, but it's moved so far beyond that now. It's about the families who - even though they don't always have the energy to walk through grocery aisles with their children, or have any idea how their child will act as a birthday party - want the best for their kids. 00;15;47;15 - 00;16;11;27 Amanda Reninger Really, we're no different than any other parent. Our children have been diagnosed on the autism spectrum. We love them even when they want to beat their heads against the wall. We love them even when they're night owls who never go to sleep. We love them even when their siblings say, “I don't know how to play with brother.” We love them forever. 00;16;11;29 - 00;16;19;23 Amanda Reninger Gabe, I love you. [Soft upbeat synth keyboard music resolves] 00;16;19;25 - 00;16;35;00 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: That story was from eight years ago. Since then, Belinda has started multiple autism clinics across the Midwest, including one that Griffin went to. I sat down with Belinda to see how she and Gabe are doing now. Belinda, welcome to the Facing Project, and thanks for sharing your story. 00;16;35;02 - 00;16;36;28 Belinda Hughes Hughes: Thank you. I'm excited to be here. 00;16;36;28 - 00;16;46;25 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: So you shared this story, I think it's been almost eight years ago now, and Gabe was 13, and now he's how old? 00;16;46;27 - 00;16;48;16 Belinda Hughes Hughes: He's about to be 21 this year. 00;16;48;17 - 00;16;52;21 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: About to be 21. So tell us about Gabe now. 00;16;52;23 - 00;17;29;29 Belinda Hughes Hughes: Gabe is now a man who shaves independently. Being 20, he, he is a lot better at managing his behaviors. He's a lot better- He'll tell me if he's- what level he's at as far as frustration. And he might not outwardly look like he's frustrated to me, but he might be thinking about something that's frustrating him. So we've kind of learned to get this groove of, I need, I need my medicine, or I need, I need a break. 00;17;30;06 - 00;17;55;10 Belinda Hughes Those kind of things have been so essential. And he- So in the morning, the therapist shows up and helps him get through his morning routine and make sure that he does all the steps that he needs to do to accomplish a successful morning. And, and then he gets through his day, and he, he works out. He loves to go to the Y. 00;17;55;12 - 00;18;18;19 Belinda Hughes That's one of his favorite things to do, and take walks around the neighborhood. And then he goes to the clinic, and he works in the afternoon. So he helped- He has helped out with building projects. He loves to do that. He- They asked me one time if, if he could take marble, the marble stairs out. And I said, “Well, I mean if he wants to.” 00;18;18;20 - 00;18;26;02 Belinda Hughes And they said, “Can we put a sledgehammer in his hand?” And I said, “It's been really nice knowing you.” [Laughter] 00;18;26;04 - 00;18;52;08 Belinda Hughes But Gabe, just, his face lit up. He put on the safety goggles and he, he did. He, he got to be Hulk and play smash. And then he carried those big pieces out, and he- all of that work he loves. Aging is just so different. You know, he got to watch his big brother hit all these milestones of driving and graduating and always looking for the next thing to get him closer to his goal. 00;18;52;15 - 00;19;20;18 Belinda Hughes And he feels accomplished. And so his- I mean, his, his life has changed a lot. At 13 we were full-time doing ABA, and, and then as an adult, his program is more naturalistic. It's more in his natural environment, meeting his needs and helping him be the most independent that he can so that we can, kind of, determine what supports he's going to need throughout the rest of his life. 00;19;20;20 - 00;19;49;23 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: I know when, shortly after we got connected, you started an ABA clinic. And full disclosure, like, Griffin was, like, one of the first, first kids. My son Griffin was one of the first kids. You know, there was not a lot of services like that, even when Griffin was first diagnosed. And there are more now, and you're moving into communities that there's a void there, but there's still seems to be a void 00;19;49;27 - 00;20;15;06 Kelsey Timmerman once, once you know- Someone turns 18, they're not a kid anymore. And that has some real repercussions on what assistance there is out for them, how the, you know, the, the government infrastructure works. So can you talk a little bit about those challenges, and how do adults and how do their families find continued support or find support? 00;20;15;09 - 00;20;40;20 Belinda Hughes Hughes: I think that is it's, it's scary, and it's the unknown for so many. And we, we work really hard when we push our kids really hard to see how far they come. And then we get to a certain point where, you know, the learning and growing, of course, never stops. However, the support, the level of support depends on how far our kids get. Some- 00;20;40;22 - 00;21;15;18 Belinda Hughes There are colleges now that have programs where kids get to audit courses and they get to live on campus, and it's kind of like putting your toe in the water and seeing if you can do that. That, of course, is not, it's not funded. Parents have to pay that out of pocket. And so if you think your child might, you know, you're saving up for your child to maybe go to college, or debating whether you should, I say go for it because you don't know what their needs are going to be when they get to be an adult. 00;21;15;21 - 00;21;45;21 Belinda Hughes The other options are, what if my kid needs a little support but can kind of be independent? Then maybe they can be in a group home setting where they have those extra supports, where they have those social opportunities, and they can still be a part and participate in the community. I think that, that we as parents or children with autism, we kind of have to be prepared for anything to happen, right? 00;21;45;22 - 00;22;08;27 Belinda Hughes When your kid is little, you pack the bag, you, you prepare, you have plan B, or, and C and D, [laughs] and then as an adult, you kind of have to have that broader vision too. And you know, we've, we've gone and looked at groups that are into trains. There are guys that have big train collections. But Gabe's too aggressive, 00;22;08;28 - 00;22;24;20 Belinda Hughes right? So his, his verbal community needs to be a little more limited to people that can manage that care too. So, so it's, I think, piecing that together is going to be essential as we move forward. 00;22;24;22 - 00;22;50;21 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: What do you think as a society- Because right now kids turn, turns 18, a lot of the financial supports disappear. For instance, right now Griffin has the autism waiver. I know it's different state by state. And we can get respite care. And he gets health insurance that can pay for things like ABA. And, but once they turn 18, some of that, you know, some of the health care still might be there. 00;22;50;24 - 00;23;01;20 Kelsey Timmerman But what, what is some of the big things that need to, to change to better support individuals with autism and their families? 00;23;01;23 - 00;23;24;23 Belinda Hughes Hughes: I think things are beginning to change. As a clinician, I have- we have provided care, ongoing care for some. And we're not getting benefits for that because they just stopped. But we can't just stop care. That would be irresponsible. We need to help transition. So then we have to, you know, look at, okay, this is where we were preparing to transition. 00;23;24;23 - 00;23;52;03 Belinda Hughes And we're going to have to transition right now. So then we work with- we have community meetings with wherever that individuals transitioning to. So if there's a family listening to this, I just encourage you to, to gather your care providers together and have a meeting. Find out what is available. Your, you mentioned med waiver. So if there's a child who gets a diagnosis, apply for that med waiver. 00;23;52;05 - 00;24;19;08 Belinda Hughes That med waiver is going to follow your child for the rest of their life. And it might not be 24-hour care, but it might be enough so that a family has the support they need to continue to, you know, live their best life, and their child has a place to go every day. I think that we're going to have to expand on opportunities, definitely. 00;24;19;11 - 00;24;38;14 Belinda Hughes You might read inspirational stories of like, my son loves cars, so I start a car detailing business and it's my child's business and they run it. And, or my child loves to cook. So there's a, there's a restaurant in Indianapolis - and I can't think of the name of it - but it's run from a mother who cooked with her son. 00;24;38;14 - 00;25;01;04 Belinda Hughes And so now there's a bakery, and there's individuals on the spectrum that run this bakery. We go to Georgia, and we can't go to Georgia without stopping by Bitty & Beau’s. And it's so fun because there's individuals with various disabilities that are running a coffee shop. Parents kind of take that mission and run with it, just like I have, you know, there's so many people that find their niche. 00;25;01;05 - 00;25;26;15 Belinda Hughes And if you're listening and you're thinking about it, do it. I say do it, go for it. There's going to be other families that, that are there too, that their kid will enjoy that too. So I think, you know, that that's kind of how this community of families living with autism have- we've, we've learned to cope ourselves. We've developed what works for ourselves because we've kind of had to. 00;25;26;17 - 00;25;40;13 Belinda Hughes Our kids are so unique. Every, I mean, every child that has walked through our doors has been unique. And I don't see that ever changing. There may be a few similarities, but no one is the same. 00;25;40;16 - 00;25;53;09 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing your story and for sharing Gabe’s story and being an example and, and help to so many. So thanks for being on the Facing Project. 00;25;53;16 - 00;25;56;17 Belinda Hughes Hughes: It's been an honor. Thank you guys. 00;25;56;19 - 00;26;25;18 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: And to close out this episode, a little magic by Cody Clark. Cody is a magician from Louisville. His magic empowers others by helping people discover and celebrate what makes them unique. He was diagnosed as autistic at 15 months, and his parents were told he’d never walk, talk, get married, have a job, and more. He overcame these expectations while developing understanding and empathy for the autism community. Cody was kind enough to share a video of one of his performances. 00;26;25;22 - 00;26;37;12 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Imagine Cody in an amazing blue magic jacket. He's holding a black and white ribbon in each hand, and each time he asks a question, he tears up the ribbon and stuffs it into one of his hands. 00;26;37;13 - 00;27;05;14 Cody Clark Clark: People's first thoughts about autism tend to be a bit too black and white for my tastes. People think we're either geniuses or failures. [Ribbons tear] They think we’re either nonverbal or walking dictionaries and won't shut up. [Ribbons tear] They think we're cold and unemotional or constantly having meltdowns at Walmart. [Ribbons tear] 00;27;05;16 - 00;27;33;01 Cody Clark There's not much in between. Only black and white. [Ribbons ruffle] Until you have a different way of thinking about autism, then you'll see that it's really a magical, colorful, and quite diverse spectrum. 00;27;33;02 - 00;27;54;03 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: And then he pulls a long rainbow scarf from his hand. You know, magic! [Theme music] 00;27;54;05 - 00;28;07;05 J.R. Jamison Jamison: Kyle Reninger’s story was written in collaboration with Jason Newman. Belinda Hughes’s story was written in collaboration with Ivy Farguheson and performed by Amanda Reninger. Cody Clark's audio was used with permission and retrieved from CodyClarkMagic.com. 00;28;07;05 - 00;28;29;11 Kelsey Timmerman Timmerman: To listen to past episodes of this program, visit IndianaPublicRadio.org/TheFacingProject. From there, you can subscribe to the podcast where you'll get episodes of the Facing Project delivered to your device each month. Listeners can contribute stories or volunteer to share the stories of others with the Facing Project that may appear on the show. More information at FacingProject.com/InspireAction. To continue the conversation about this episode, 00;28;29;12 - 00;28;32;00 Kelsey Timmerman find us on Facebook at The Facing Project. 00;28;32;01 - 00;28;52;21 J.R. Jamison Jamison: The Facing Project is recorded at Indiana Public Radio at Ball State University in beautiful Muncie, Indiana, and is produced by the amazing producer extraordinaire Sean Ashcraft. The show is distributed nationally through PRX. We are your host, Kelsey Timmerman and J.R. Jamison. And until next time, we wish you the courage to share your own story and the empathy to listen to others. [Theme music concludes]